Détente, Of Sorts
A continuation of the last post . . . Wayne's posted something interesting on SD.Net:
I've often said that their incessant aggressive bluster is used to cover up other things (weakness in arguments and so on). And so I generally just read past the bluster.
In this case, that leads me to a notion for which I have no direct evidence, but would like to believe. It's possible that after seeing my umpteenth railing against their poisoning the well of discourse . . . the umpteenth description of how I have little interest in and don't want to be involved in their ad hominem battles but will clearly go to the mat when needed . . . he saw through the fog of the other side's spin and realized that maybe what I was saying was true.
In other words, he's declared victory but still taken a step I outlined in my last post for détente.
I can live with the former to get the latter. Thus I shall also begin removing references to Poe from ST-v-SW.Net. And incidentally, the same old offer naturally remains open for Wong as well.
"After yesterday's fun and games, I was all set to update the Darkstar Database, complete with a whole new chapter. I made space on my desktop, moving the G2K bridge damage textures for "The Last Bastion" part 5, the voice overs, and other things off to the side, so I could amass all the info I needed for the update. But then I began thinking. (Shut it, Dalton.) Darkstar is unruffled by these updates [ ... snip bluster ... ]
So last night, I didn't update the Darkstar Database. Today, after thinking about it for quite a while, I erased it. I did a quick purge of any mention of Darkstar on my website. [...] I'll let "The Last Bastion" [parody video] stand as my ultimate criticism against this idiot."
I've often said that their incessant aggressive bluster is used to cover up other things (weakness in arguments and so on). And so I generally just read past the bluster.
In this case, that leads me to a notion for which I have no direct evidence, but would like to believe. It's possible that after seeing my umpteenth railing against their poisoning the well of discourse . . . the umpteenth description of how I have little interest in and don't want to be involved in their ad hominem battles but will clearly go to the mat when needed . . . he saw through the fog of the other side's spin and realized that maybe what I was saying was true.
In other words, he's declared victory but still taken a step I outlined in my last post for détente.
I can live with the former to get the latter. Thus I shall also begin removing references to Poe from ST-v-SW.Net. And incidentally, the same old offer naturally remains open for Wong as well.
posted by G2k at 7:22:00 AM
89 Comments:
Now, you're the one that's nuts. I highly doubt he isn't gonna just delete it. He'll keep an unaltered copy that'll be updated, as he updates the 'current' pages.
I just looked at the last page in the thread and, while Poe does say he wants to call a moratorium in the senate at SDN, I don't see it passing. It might come close, but it won't happen.
As expected, Wong's pushing a hardliner approach, suggesting that "he will just claim people are afraid of him" if they officially pretend I don't exist.
Au contraire . . .
1. Wong should stop projecting his tactics of bravado onto me. His inability to understand someone who is not like him is a large part of the problem.
2. Wayne's already declared victory in the personal combat in advance of the deletions, to which I said basically 'cool, whatever'. You guys can save as much face as you like.
3. Wayne ought not allow Wong's extremism to dictate his own actions. If Wayne wants to remove the BS about me and have me remove mentions of him, he is at liberty to do so. If there is pressure not to do that, perhaps Wayne ought to ponder the origin and nature of that pressure. He might not like what conclusions would be drawn.
And, true to form, Poe says he's gonna leave the database up, so he can point it out when he wants to. I don't put much stock in the fact that he will still leave out what he's already cut from the page.
I agree. It'll stay on his computer, updated but not posted until such a time that a new wave of attacks is decided to be called against this site.
Given that this site will respond in defense, Poe will then post it since Mr. Anderson "attacked them so wrongly" and the cycle will continue. Do not be blind-sided by this.
Well, at least we get a break between the spin cycles... } ; = 8 )
Well, I've made a "first pass" of clean-up. It actually improved things nicely over on CanonWars. I've still got to figure out what to do with a few things like old blog posts and, most especially, the archived versions of old pages that I saved so that the "Battle of Britain" stuff would have a basis of comparison.
Given that it's archival in that context I feel it inappropriate to delete references to him, though I suppose I could do a word replacement thing, like "Unnamed Detractor" (to coin a phrase).
I can say that four of my pages are down right now. The CanonWars page on Wayne's rendition of the so-called "Production Evasion" clearly needs some sort of reworking since it's based on one of his arguments . . . I figure I'll leave it up but simply remove any unprofessional references.
There are also some specific pages (Falcon acceleration and SW weapons range objections) where his objections featured prominently, so I'm going to edit those offline and repost sanitized editions.
The old "Support Group" page is also down for a bit, 'till I decide on how to modify it.
I must say directly to Wayne... I'm... happily surprised...
Good show, good ammount of tact too all things considered.
Could this be a new step in the vs debates!? Join us next time for "As the Debate Turns." ^_-
The debate is long over. You are just like those Japanese soldiers left on a pacific island thinking that war is still on 45 years later :)
But don't give up. Who knows maybe some day you'll have triple digit members :)
CanonWars page on Wayne's rendition of the so-called "Production Evasion" clearly needs some sort of reworking since it's based on one of his arguments
Dude, I've got a headache and thought 'reworking' said 'ewoking'. Seriously.
It sounds to me like Poe and Wong are both running scared, flying into damage control after the double whammy they recently recieved...
1: George Lucas confirming (yet again) irrefutatbley that 'his' Star Wars and the EU Star Wars are two completely different things...
2: You offically declaring Star Trek's victory in the tactical side of the Vs. debate.
Personally, I love the first one. You wouldn't believe how many people out there still believe the EU is canon...
1: George Lucas confirming (yet again) irrefutatbley that 'his' Star Wars and the EU Star Wars are two completely different things...
Which of the recent staements were you thinking of? Was it one in 2006?
Oh I know for a fact Wong and Poe are scared shitlless. I mean sure no one in the debate world (except for a handful of people here) gave a shit about Darkstar's declaration that Lucas' latest creatively interpreted quote means no EU and no one but 10-20 diehard Trekkies gives a shit about St-v-Sw or it's declaration of victory but hey why should that make you give up or rethink your position.
You should now focus on declaring the STRATEGIC victory of the Federation vs galactic spanning civilization and make sure you put it on the front page. That is sure to make a clear message as to what kind of logic this site offers.
Keep on Trekkin' man!
Heh, I find it funny when people resort to sarcasm and puffed up BS when they don't have a leg to stand on, don't you?
You sure got me there. Here I am trying to pretend that vast majority of the people involved in the debate doesn't see you as couple of idiots when in fact you have thousands of members.
I mean next thing you know I'll start pretending that even people on spacebattles which despise ICS think Darkstar is a moron.
Damn you can see right through me.
Kinda hard to take you seriously when you post as anonymous.
Which of the recent staements were you thinking of? Was it one in 2006?
I was refering to the post on Canon Wars entitled 'Calculate the Yield of This Quote'.
no one but 10-20 diehard Trekkies gives a shit about St-v-Sw or it's declaration of victory
That strikes me as being odd when two well known figures in the Vs. debate, Wong and Poe, seem to be obsessed with taking G2K down.
If no one gives a damn about mr. Anderson, why would Wong and Poe bother with their constant slandering and harrassment?
I honestly have no idea what this anonymosu is on about...
Kinda hard to take you seriously when you post as anonymous.
As opposed to "savage"?
That strikes me as being odd when two well known figures in the Vs. debate, Wong and Poe, seem to be obsessed with taking G2K down.
If no one gives a damn about mr. Anderson, why would Wong and Poe bother with their constant slandering and harrassment?
When Darkstar does something monumentally stupid, for example claiming that there are two Birar patches based on his assumptions and refusing to back down even when Mike Sussman a guy who wrote the episode says he is wrong, then they update the page since it concerns the St-v-SW debate. But at this point this is merely making fun of him rather than taking him as some kind of serious competition.
I honestly have no idea what this anonymosu is on about...
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt eh folks.
Let me explain it for you: how many people in the debate has this page convinced of anything? 10? 20? 20 of you diehards now flock around this page and starfleetjedi thinking you are winning because st-v-sw claims this or that. Well st-v-sw can claim whatever it wants to, how many people are convinced by it that is a measure of success. And guess what: no one gives a shit.
Still, for some unknown reason, you post here... oh wait; I know the reply, "I'm trying to teach you all that no one cares!" or some such. Let me put it to you this way, if you think he is so wrong, tell us why, cite your evidence. I've seen HUNDREDS of 'anons' come around and spout that Darkstar is wrong, while not taking down a single argument of his.
Also, while I’m on the topic of the debate, not all of us agree completely with Darkstar (hell I've downright been against a few of his statements), but most of us recognized a well constructed and well supported work when we saw it, something that SD.net is not (which spouts a lot, but doesn’t cite very well).
So, I guess the ball is in YOUR corner now. I'm sure a reply will be along the lines of, "you're delusional" or, "If you can't see why SW wins I can't explain it." Who knows though, maybe you will be the first to debunk his site. Last I checked he still took on personal debates.
So in the end all that is left is to get a name, post in the open and realize that we all aren't enemies. Frankly, the cloak and dagger routine has been done a thousand times and no one, not me, not Darkstar, not Wayne, not Mike, likes it, that much is something both sides agree on.
As opposed to "savage"?
Right, my nick name. But it leaves a marker as opposed to "anon". It shows I'm willing to stand by what I post, not hide behind a blank title.
Still, for some unknown reason, you post here... oh wait; I know the reply, "I'm trying to teach you all that no one cares!" or some such. Let me put it to you this way, if you think he is so wrong, tell us why, cite your evidence. I've seen HUNDREDS of 'anons' come around and spout that Darkstar is wrong, while not taking down a single argument of his.
Actually I'm not trying to teach you anything, there is no hope of that. There is no need to "shoot down Darkstar's" arguments since no one but handful of people takes him seriously. Not to mention there are pages which already dealt with his bullshit. So why bother? You amuse me that's all.
Actually I'm not trying to teach you anything, there is no hope of that. There is no need to "shoot down Darkstar's" arguments since no one but handful of people takes him seriously. Not to mention there are pages which already dealt with his bullshit. So why bother? You amuse me that's all.
Well, mister 'big shot tough guy who doesn't have to prove anything', prove it. Instead of copping out with pathetic excuses for why you don't have to back up your bet, why don't you actually grow the balls and do it. If he's already been dealt with, it should be a simple matter of proving him wrong, shouldn't it? I mean, if he is so obviously wrong, it should be simple to present the obvious truth, shouldn't it? Yet you don't. Why is that? It's certainly not because it's not worth the effort or because you don't have the time, because you're wasting the effort and spending the time just posting here. So, Mister Anon, either put up, or shut up.
Just goes to show, the easiest thing in the world is vacuous heckling. The feigned ennui is a nice bonus touch.
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/ennui.htm
All you have to do to heckle anon's way is claim that nobody/only-a-few agrees with X . . . the old argumentum ad populam.
If pressed, you can just throw some BS spin about a past event such as the Sussman thing. The real story is here:
http://www.st-v-sw.net/weblog/2006/08/briar-patches.html
(Incidentally, I find that sort of thing amusing, inasmuch as my opponents try to claim that I abuse everyone in any official setting whether there was disagreement or not, yet cast themselves as pure angels as they harass Star Wars VIPs all across the net. It's really quite absurd.)
Shake well and voila . . . one ridiculous anon.
Oh I can easily point out the "obvious" truth for example:
1. From his Death Star page:
"In this brightened key to the second image, it is the one circled in deep blue. The more distant (circled) bays within the submerged dock area the Falcon flies into appear to be of equal height to the Falcon's intended bay, which allows us to scale the height of the entire submerged dock area (note the farthest wall). The farthest section of the nearest left-side bay entrance measures 7 pixels. The nearest section of the farthest left-side bay measures 6 pixels. Assuming that 23 meters equals 6.5 pixels, then the height of the column between the two bays, measuring 170 pixels, is 247.7 meters. Since the submerged dock area is apparently rectangular, this means that the outermost section of the submerged area is about 250 meters tall."
Wrong Darkstar. If the column is 170px and hangar is 6.5px that means the column is 26.15 times bigger and since hangar is 23 meters that means column is 601.5 meters and NOT 250 meters as you claim. That means the final value for Death Star's diameter will be 2.4 times larger.
2. Darkstar lies about the diameter of torpedoes to increase the yield. If you look at the episode "Call to arms" several torpedoes strike the Galor class cruiser and the warp nacelle of a Dominion battleship. Torpedoes are no more than 2m wide. He of course tries to make it look as if he's done a very thorough analysis by posting different torpedoes from different eras which of course have different apparent diameters. What does that have to do with small yellow torpedoes from DS9 and Voyager and how does it prove that torpedoes grow is beyond any reasonable person.
3.After choosing 10m radius for torpedo and assuming 60% vaporization (as if the asteroid can't be pulverized by much less than 60% vaporization) he has the gall to call that "I bent over backwards lower limit". Plug in a 2m torpedo and fragmentation and you'll get something approaching lower limit.
4.In his hyperdrive speed AOTC section he first assumes it is night when emergency session of the Senate is convened but then he gives an update in which he elaborates that it is actually pre-dawn. But then he silently assumes that it is pre-dawn the NEXT day. There is absolutely no evidence for this since Obi-Wan also reports sometimes in pre-dawn and it could very well be the same day. In fact it is obviously the same day unless you feel that emergency session will be called not until 21 hours later and that Mace Windu will wait for the same 21 hours before thinking that he might send some help to Obi-Wan.
5.The ROTJ hyperdrive:
S3 - noonish. A few hours after S1, the Rebels and the two Ewoks arrive at the back entrance/secret entrance/bunker, and note the four scout troopers guarding it, with their speeder bikes nearby.
Paploo rushes off and steals one of the bikes, leading three of the troops on a long merry chase, and he then abandons the bike by vine and escapes into the woods. Han's comment before he saw the outcome was "there goes our surprise attack". But, all's well, and a couple of hours later . . .
You gave no evidence that "S3" occurs around noon as opposed to being in the morning.
S4 - early afternoon. Han draws the remaining trooper into a trap, and the Rebels enter the bunker.
As the novelization puts it, "Soon the entire team was huddled inside the otherwise empty steel corridor, leaving one lookout outside, dressed in the unconscious scout's uniform."
Night falls. The Rebels meander stealthily through the "labyrinthine" corridors of the underground facility.
Again you give no evidence as to time of the day. And your insistence that they actually spent 15 hours or so wandering the corridors of the bunker is truly ridiculous. The very next scene showing Death Star in orbit shows the DS2 rapidly crossing the terminator of the planet within few moments. Obviously this was not due to the rotation of the planet but movement of DS2 which was likely relocating to a more favorable position for pending engagement.
Look behind the Emperor as he is talking to Luke, the stars are clearly moving behind him thus further implying movement or at least rotation by DS2. Your entire nigh-day cycle is based on assumption that DS2 remains stationary which is incorrect.
6. When talking about SW ship acceleration you neglect to mention the Endor approach when the planet grows visibly as the fleet approaches requiring deceleration abilities on the order of several km/s2 at least. You also ignore the fact that Dooku's ship cleared the Geonosis planetary rings (10,000km) in the time it took Yoda to pick up his cane after his fight with Dooku and Amidala to run to Anakin from entrance of the cave, some 10-20 meters. Again several km/s2 at least.
7. In "Vaporizing a small town" article Darkstar assumes some American small town since the author is from that part. This is of course ridiculous. We are operating under suspension of disbelief and author's birthplace is utterly irrelevant. In fact putting the quote into context the battle was observed through the eyes of Coruscant's population thus obviously their idea of a "small town" should be considered.
8.Ramming, Shields, and the Nemesis Fallacy article.
Darkstar claims that every shield impact incident involves glow effect which is nothing but a lie. We have seen Jem'Hadar fighters ramming many BoPs and Vor'Cha class ships and never was this glow observed. The same is with weapon impact: some shield configurations involve glow others don't.
In fact Scimitar's shields themselves produced no glow upon being hit with weapons or when Picard punched through them with the stolen fighter. The only effect was temporary decloaking of the part that was hit.
8. Borg personal shield article.
Again Darkstar makes no attempt to explain what is the fundamental difference between fists, knifes, back of a rifle and speeding bullets. We are talking about physical objects moving at a certain speed.
He also tries to pass internal ship forcefields as some kind of evidence that Borg drones have them too.
9.From "Overview":
In any case, Coruscant is the most developed world by far, as per the novel, and undoubtedly has what we 21st Century folk would consider a staggering population.
Nowhere is it stated that Coruscant is most developed planet "by far". This is nothing more than one of your fabrications.
Assuming a population of 5 billion per member world (Earth's current population), the Federation would have a population of 750 billion, not including associates, protectorates, or colonies.
Out of all your bullshit the double standard is the most amusing. So you feel that Coruscant is super unique and shouldn't be used as a benchmark in any way but you do so freely with Earth. To lend credibility to your dishonesty you pepper the claim with a statement from a guy locked up in a mental institution. I think that sums up your level of argument quite nicely.
10.Check out this page for a detailed deconstruction of other Darkstar's lies:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/MoO/index.html
Of course this is just the tip of the iceberg and I certainly don't expect you or your band of fanatics to actually admit to any of this but I just wanted to show you how easy it is to point out your lies.
All you have to do to heckle anon's way is claim that nobody/only-a-few agrees with X . . . the old argumentum ad populam.
Yeah sure whatever makes you feel better Darkstar. But maybe one day you'll have the strength to admit to yourself that no one but your band of buddies buys into your shit.
1.) Oh no! Anon Rabid Warsie actually found a math error in RSA's work! What nice little strawman...attack a mistake without dealing with the body of the work.
At any rate, the column can simply be reduced _below_ 600 meters by reducing the Falcon's width (and thereby the height of the hanger bay) to a more reasonable 21 meters, or about 546 meters in vertical height. And before you whine and bitch Anon Warsie, just remember that the offical EU width for the Falcon is far smaller than even that, and some have scaled the Falcon down to a mere 18 or so meters wide.
So before you assail him for lying about the math, just remember to give him some credit for over-estimating the Falcon first.
2.) The Dominon battlecruiser being a few frames from being hit here in this Trekcore image:
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=138&pos=338
That is NOT a 2 meter wide torpedo core glow, never mind the the flares. The average width of the nacelle in-line with the torpedo's trajectory is about 4.1 times larger than the torp's core glow. Given the inaccurately small DS9 TM's 640 meter length that would leave us with an average nacelle width of about 64 meters, and a torpedo core glow of about 15.7 meters. That's half again larger than RSA's 10 meter average obtained for "Rise"!
Mind you, I've just shown a bit of an exercise in some detail about scaling the torpedo to the Dominion battlecruiser (if this were the _battleship_, btw, that number would go up by _at least_ a factor of two for the core glow size), but you on the other hand, just simply made a statement without showing any proof. Now who's the liar, I should wonder.?
3.) Anon Rabid Warsie tries to claim, again without proof, that the Death Star 2 suddenly repositioned itself to better engage the coming Rebel fleet. Yet nowhere in the movie, nor in the second-level canon of the novelization is there any indication of the Death Star doing so. Certainly someone in the Rebel fleet when it came out of hyperspace did not notice any unusual positional change. The only thing Lando noticed wrong was the lack of a reading on whether or not the protective Endor shield was down.
Also interesting is that neither Luke, Han, Leia or any of the Rebels on Endor observed the Death Star's movement, which would have been significant to say the least.
No, RSA's timeline may indeed have flaws, but there is evidence that a significant amount of time did indeed go by, allowing for Endor to rotate and the Death Star to end up at the day-night terminator as shown in the movie. On top of that, the EU's NJO book "Vector Prime" has a quote stating that an X-wing pilot, if willing to push things, could indeed take a week to make a journey. So spending several days in-route is not out of the question.
4.) On RSA's supposed unwillingness to acknowledge fast acceleration/deceleration of SW ships, there is this thread at SFJ:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=222
Please note that he is the author and is acknowledging a situation that shows very favorable ISD deceleration capabilities.
5.) Could Anon Rabid Warsie please show how the strange glow effects of various torpedo and phaser hits on the Scimitar are _only_ cloak disruptions, and not also shield glow? Does Anon Rabid Warsie have a statement that the Scimitar's shields are up or down when Picard and Data do they're little "break out" maneuver with the Scorpion fighter? A quote? Anything?
6.) Borg forcefields in their own ships? Why that was established as far back as "Best of Both Worlds, Part I" with forcefields that kept Commander Shelby's rescue team from getting to Picard/Locutus.
7.) The 900 billion casulty figure given by Jack and his genetically enhanced associates was in no way contradicted by anyone, most in particularly Dr. Bashir, who, with his stable genetically engineered super-intellect would know that Jack's numbers were nonsense. Jack and the others may have had social problems and an inability to fit into society, but they were very intelligent, and capable of analysis and problem-solving as was demonstrated when Jack and the others who were enhanced were able to determine the entire story of Damar's rise to power by just watching a recording of a speech, and without ever having heard anything beforehand. They also correctly figured out from other recordings of peach talks that the Dominion was merely stalling for time due to their shortage of ketracel-white, and that the Federation would certainly lose the war in the long run, if it entered into the treaty.
Ah, but to expect important matters of context and completeness from the Rabid Warsies...
9.) Speaking of which, Anon Rabid Warsie points us to one of Wong's hate mail pages, which is filled with tons of even more such shit.
1.) Oh no! Anon Rabid Warsie actually found a math error in RSA's work! What nice little strawman...attack a mistake without dealing with the body of the work.
At any rate, the column can simply be reduced _below_ 600 meters by reducing the Falcon's width (and thereby the height of the hanger bay) to a more reasonable 21 meters, or about 546 meters in vertical height. And before you whine and bitch Anon Warsie, just remember that the offical EU width for the Falcon is far smaller than even that, and some have scaled the Falcon down to a mere 18 or so meters wide.
Since the cockpit area must be at least 3m tall to accommodate a Wookie with significant headroom and floorpadding and since the Falcon itself is 8 times as wide as cockpit it cannot be less than 24 meters wide. That means Darkstar's figure would still be 1.82 times off meaning that DS diameter is 220km.
So before you assail him for lying about the math, just remember to give him some credit for over-estimating the Falcon first.
Really he didn't mention any size overestimation for Falcon when he crowed about Romulan scout having cloak even though it's smaller.
2.) The Dominon battlecruiser being a few frames from being hit here in this Trekcore image:
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=138&pos=338
That is NOT a 2 meter wide torpedo core glow, never mind the the flares. The average width of the nacelle in-line with the torpedo's trajectory is about 4.1 times larger than the torp's core glow. Given the inaccurately small DS9 TM's 640 meter length that would leave us with an average nacelle width of about 64 meters, and a torpedo core glow of about 15.7 meters. That's half again larger than RSA's 10 meter average obtained for "Rise"!
Mind you, I've just shown a bit of an exercise in some detail about scaling the torpedo to the Dominion battlecruiser (if this were the _battleship_, btw, that number would go up by _at least_ a factor of two for the core glow size), but you on the other hand, just simply made a statement without showing any proof. Now who's the liar, I should wonder.?
No need to wonder. YOU are the liar since you damn well know that torpedo is still way closer to the camera than battlecruiser.
Allow me to demonstrate:
http://www.geocities.com/idesdjurdja/torpedo1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/idesdjurdja/torpedo2.jpg
Is that 10 meters? Just how big is Galor class? How big are it's windows?
http://www.geocities.com/idesdjurdja/torpedo3.jpg
Again how big is that torpedo? How big is the nacelle?
3.) Anon Rabid Warsie tries to claim, again without proof, that the Death Star 2 suddenly repositioned itself to better engage the coming Rebel fleet. Yet nowhere in the movie, nor in the second-level canon of the novelization is there any indication of the Death Star doing so. Certainly someone in the Rebel fleet when it came out of hyperspace did not notice any unusual positional change. The only thing Lando noticed wrong was the lack of a reading on whether or not the protective Endor shield was down.
Also interesting is that neither Luke, Han, Leia or any of the Rebels on Endor observed the Death Star's movement, which would have been significant to say the least.
No, RSA's timeline may indeed have flaws, but there is evidence that a significant amount of time did indeed go by, allowing for Endor to rotate and the Death Star to end up at the day-night terminator as shown in the movie. On top of that, the EU's NJO book "Vector Prime" has a quote stating that an X-wing pilot, if willing to push things, could indeed take a week to make a journey. So spending several days in-route is not out of the question.
Just like I predicted. I pointed out that in the scene Darkstar uses we SEE the Death Star rapidly crossing the terminator thus PROVING that there is more here than simple rotation of the planet and you just pretend you didn't hear me.
4.) On RSA's supposed unwillingness to acknowledge fast acceleration/deceleration of SW ships, there is this thread at SFJ:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=222
Please note that he is the author and is acknowledging a situation that shows very favorable ISD deceleration capabilities.
Fine, let's see if he actually updates the SW acceleration page.
5.) Could Anon Rabid Warsie please show how the strange glow effects of various torpedo and phaser hits on the Scimitar are _only_ cloak disruptions, and not also shield glow? Does Anon Rabid Warsie have a statement that the Scimitar's shields are up or down when Picard and Data do they're little "break out" maneuver with the Scorpion fighter? A quote? Anything?
He he he. So you claim that shields were down when Picard made the escape with the fighter? And yet the effect was COMPLETELY THE SAME when weapons impacted the ship. This means that there is NO glow of the shield itself and all we see is cloaking device effects.
And there is a statement that the shields are at 70% just before Enterprise rams it but Darkstar tries to weasel out of it. He fails however to provide any evidence that shields are down since we have seen shield configurations that give out no glow. A point which I raised above but you predictably ignored.
6.) Borg forcefields in their own ships? Why that was established as far back as "Best of Both Worlds, Part I" with forcefields that kept Commander Shelby's rescue team from getting to Picard/Locutus.
I see your reading comprehension is as lacking as your honesty. I simply pointed out Darkstar's dishonesty at claiming that internal ship KE forcefields can be used as proof for Drone KE forcefields.
7.) The 900 billion casulty figure given by Jack and his genetically enhanced associates was in no way contradicted by anyone, most in particularly Dr. Bashir, who, with his stable genetically engineered super-intellect would know that Jack's numbers were nonsense. Jack and the others may have had social problems and an inability to fit into society, but they were very intelligent, and capable of analysis and problem-solving as was demonstrated when Jack and the others who were enhanced were able to determine the entire story of Damar's rise to power by just watching a recording of a speech, and without ever having heard anything beforehand. They also correctly figured out from other recordings of peach talks that the Dominion was merely stalling for time due to their shortage of ketracel-white, and that the Federation would certainly lose the war in the long run, if it entered into the treaty.
Ah, but to expect important matters of context and completeness from the Rabid Warsies...
How do you know that he "correctly" predicted that Federation will lose the war? It never did so you can't know can you? Not to mention that no one commented on his idiotic claim that 150 years from surrender Federation will lead a rebellion. How the fuck can he know what will happen in 150 years? How the fuck can he know that Weyoun won't exterminate Earth's population which is EXACTLY what he intended to do.
There is a reason this guy is in a loony bin.
9.) Speaking of which, Anon Rabid Warsie points us to one of Wong's hate mail pages, which is filled with tons of even more such shit.
Seeing as how it managed to convince all debaters (except for a few here) I'd say it's up to you to prove that.
No need to wonder. YOU are the liar since you damn well know that torpedo is still way closer to the camera than battlecruiser.
Allow me to demonstrate:
http://www.geocities.com/idesdjurdja/torpedo1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/idesdjurdja/torpedo2.jpg
Is that 10 meters? Just how big is Galor class? How big are it's windows?
http://www.geocities.com/idesdjurdja/torpedo3.jpg
Again how big is that torpedo? How big is the nacelle?
I just measured the torpedo width myself, using the pic you posted, SW Anon, assuming a Dominion nacelle width of 64 meters. On my screen, the Dominion nacelle came to about 20 millimeters wide, or 3.2 meters per millimeter on my screen (15" LCD set to 1024 x 768), and the photon torpedo has a 4 millimeter diameter core glow. That comes out to a 12.8 meter wide torpedo core glow, which is about the same size as the smaller torpedo in ST Anon's TrekCore pic (I believe you were looking at the wrong torpedo).
For the Galor example, I'd eyeball the torpedo's core glow to be roughly two meters. But that doesn't prove that the torpedo core glows are all only about 2 meters across. G2K's own torpedo glow page shows a range of sizes for torpedoes, even for torps fired from the same ship in different episodes. G2K's page shows torp sizes ranging from a couple meters to almost 16 meters, with most figures hovering around the 5-10 meter mark. We've seen Mr. Wong, Mr. Poe, etc. choose higher-end figures from comparable ranges on other things, so I hardly think it's fair for you to criticize Mr. Anderson for taking an above-average figure in this case.
He he he. So you claim that shields were down when Picard made the escape with the fighter? And yet the effect was COMPLETELY THE SAME when weapons impacted the ship. This means that there is NO glow of the shield itself and all we see is cloaking device effects.
And there is a statement that the shields are at 70% just before Enterprise rams it but Darkstar tries to weasel out of it. He fails however to provide any evidence that shields are down since we have seen shield configurations that give out no glow. A point which I raised above but you predictably ignored.
The only solid example that you have of a shield impact with no shield glow is when the Enterprise rams the Scimitar. The Dominion War examples are not conclusive, because it is entirely possible that fire had been exchanged and shields brought down when we "weren't looking", since it's been shown conclusively that ST ranges are significantly greater than just the couple of kilometers or less the ships are invariably at when we cut to an external view of them.
And before you go on to say that there were no shield flares for the Scimitar's shields, only cloak flashes, that is not correct. I've analyzed that battle over a dozen times, dozens of collective hours for a few debates I've been in, and I can assure you, the Scimitar's shields do glow, just like normal shields. Don't believe me? Then let's go to the screencaps, shall we? (***Warning: 56kers beware, I have a tendency to go screen-cap happy***)
First, Picard and Data breaking out of the Scimitar, presumably with the Scimitar's shields down (since they didn't go smush against anything, after all). Note the gray shimmer.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap085.jpg
Next, the Scimitar just after a double impact from two of the Romulans' disruptors. Note the distinctive green glow, which was distinctly absent when Data and Picard broke through the big window thing.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap086.jpg
Here's some residual afterglow from the cloak, which happens both when the Scimitar is hit, and when the Scimitar fires. Note the gray/green shimmer distinctive of the cloak.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap087.jpg
And here's the Scimitar firing a torpedo, which causes the cloak to shimmer. Note that there is only the gray/green shimmer.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap088.jpg
Here, we have a pair of phaser strikes from the Enterprise, note the distinct, bright white flash, that we don't get when just the cloak is disturbed.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap089.jpg
And another phaser hit, again note the distinctive bright white flash that we get with the phaser impacts, and also note the gray/green shimmer of the disturbed cloak even further out.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap090.jpg
And here we have a torpedo strike on the Scimitar, note the large gray/green halo of the disturbed cloak around the green glow in the center, where the torpedo hit.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap091.jpg
Here's a series of screencaps, following the progress of one of the Romulan disruptors, just before the disruptor hits. It's hard to see, hence the series of pics (I should have cropped and highlighted it, but I'm feeling kinda lazy tonight). The pulse in question is the little dot just down and to the right of the photon torpedoes that are about to hit the Scimitar. It almost looks like a star, but it's too a little too bright. Note in the last one the distinctive white flash on impact. (the existing disturbance of the cloak and rapid close-proximity impacts make it difficult to see the shield flashes of the other pulses/torpedoes, but this one pulse is far enough away from most of the other impacts to see it clearly).
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap092.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap093.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap094.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap095.jpg
Now, here we have the Scimitar's viewscreen showing the aft view, note the decloaked port nacelle.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap096.jpg
And here we have the shield flare on that uncloaked nacelle.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap097.jpg
Quantum torpedo impact, note the central white flare, with the gray/green disturbance halo some distance out around it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap098.jpg
Another Quantum impact, once again note the distinctive 'bulls-eye' effect of the white shield flash and the disturbance halo (heh, it's the port nacelle taking a hit again).
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap099.jpg
Phaser impact on an exposed nacelle (man, nobody likes that port nacelle). Note the distinct shield glow.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap100.jpg
Another phaser impact, the Scimitar's cloak has failed completely at this point. Once again, a shield glow!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap101.jpg
Residual shield glow from that last phaser strike.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap102.jpg
A photon torpedo hit, with a shield glow (Heh, even when that darn starboard nacelle gets hit, something else takes most of it. Poor Port Nacelle...)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap103.jpg
And finally, the residual shield glow from that last torpedo.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap104.jpg
So, as you can see, the Scimitar's shields definitely DO glow throughout the entire battle. The only times we do not see a shield glow are when the Enterprise rams the Scimitar and when Data and Picard break through the observation window. Since the Scimitar didn't have her shields up in the latter (as evidenced by the lack of the Scorpion going splat), the most logical conclusion is that, for whatever reason, the Scimitar did not have her shields up when the Enterprise rammed her. That conclusion is further evidenced by the fact that the Enterprise clearly only impacted the Scimitar's hull, and no other barrier (invisible or otherwise) prior to impact.
1.) Using the Falcon as seen in the Death Star docking bay entry image, the cockpit to beam width ratio is about 7.426. Thus we have 22.279 meters as the Falcon width. Let's call it 22 meters even. Now the trick is that the height of the bay is dependent on the width of the Falcon. So give or take the bay is approximately 74% of the Falcon's beam in height, or about 16.28 meters tall. Multiply that by the 26 to 1 ratio from earlier and we get about 423 meters for the column's height. So that translates to a 1,184 meter tall large column and overall trench height. Which means the "waistband" feature is 16,173 meters tall. So this means "only" a 1.69 x greater width for the Death Star, or 185.9 km.
Although we get a value a little bit bigger than the 160 km number, we get a number bit significantly smaller than 220 km.
By the way, an 18 meter wide Falcon nets you a 969 meter tall trench and a 13.2 km tall waistband, or a difference of 1.38, or a 152 km Death Star.
Of course, that all depends on how you want to fiddle with the Falcon's width, the size of the cockpit and everything else. But suffice to say, we don't wind up with a Death Star 1.85 times bigger than RSA's estimate.
2.) Taking the 3rd screencap, it still doesn't change much. The Trekcore image is larger in size (about 20% bigger). The difference changes at _worst_ to 15.6, or about 4.1 meters for the core glow. More than twice still over your previous 2 meter diameter estimate (still haven't mentioned how exactly you got that, btw with regards to the Dominion Cruiser). However, the core glow is closer to around 4.6 meters diameter. As for the Galor torpedo, it's kind of hard to gauge the diameter of the torpedo core versus the raised retangular features you call windows on the Cardassian ship. But 3 meters is more about the right width for the core glow there given a comparison to the curved "bridge" superstructure feature (approx. 35/1 ratio), which is about 100 meters wide based on the overall 200-225 meter "wingspan" of the Galor. So at worst here we have what? A couple of torps with core glow of 3-5 meters. That's still substantially larger compared to your blanket statement 2 meter size.
Of course it's an academic point since the torpedoes being compared with the asteroid in "Rise" are the ones that come from Voyager herself, they in turn are being scaled to that ship, and 10 meters as the final core growth is a reasonable scaling, as is the fact that the asteroid was stated to be made of two artifical _alloys_ in addition to the naturally occuring oviline, not the expected nickel-iron, which in turn substantially changed the outcome from one of the expected vaporization to one of signifcant fragmentation.
3.)Is the Death Star really crossing the terminator so rapidly? Compare the "Good Morning" shot at RSA's page:
http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWendorday.html
with the earlier one of the Death Star sitting at a nearly (but not quite the same) identical position during the middle of the Rebel attack. The pre-dawn view as seen from the Falcon cockpit just after the fleet drops from hyperspace is actually seems to be an oddity compared to those two; either the Death Star 2 likes to wobble about alot, or it is just plain inconsistant with the other two shots showiing the DS2 sitting right about on the terminator. Either way, there's nothing to indicate that the Death Star suddenly decided to do a super-maneuver to catch the Rebels.
4.)When RSA updates his page, that's his responsibility and when he obviously has the time to do so (this is a hobby, you know), just as it would nice if Mike Wong would someday update his pages to eliminate or correct "mistakes" he has made concerning Star Trek technologies. So of which would result in a fairly big advantage for the Federation against the Empire, or at least a move to parity.
5.)The only actual statements I can find concerning shields is that the hanger bay _forcefields_ are up. Why go through the unnecessary trouble of putting up full shields when forcefields should suffice? It's not like everyone expects prisoners to go flying through corridors in a fighter and crash out a window. Try to keep things within the bounds of realistic expectation here. At most they might have raised shields to block Picard and Data from beaming back to the Enterprise. But then again, why would they since they discovered that the pair was attempting escape in a fighter, and simply putting up forcefields would suffice?
6.)Wrong. It shows that the Borg are capable of KE-blocking forcefields regardless of your own dishonest spin.
7.)It was the math of the situation Jack and the other genetically enhanched people calculated out. Would the Federation really lose the war or not as Jack and the others predicted? Maybe. Maybe not. But that does not by default render the population casulty figures invalid either. No one disputed that such an thing was impossible. No one disputed that the Federation could ever have 900 billion people to be killed. That's an unalterable fact, and it effected Dr. Bashir profoundly enough that he sided with Jack for a short time, and tried to persude Sisko to have the Federation surrender.
8.) Sorry, but the fanatical and foaming followers of Wong are not the end-all and be-all of debators. The fact that those people managed to trick a portion of the debators into giving up the Versus debate with a twisted understanding of the canon SW is why people are starting to slowly trickle in here at ST-V-SW.Net to see another, alternate viewpoint, flaws or no flaws.
So anon goes from vacuous pooh-poohing to flinging vacuous poo. How delightful . . .
1. The DS1 potential size thing was noted on STrek way back when, so that's nothing new. If you peek at the section above the DS section, you'd note that the DS size is stated to be in a state of official review.
I'm working on a massive SW re-scaling project, as repeatedly noted on the site, so if you missed it that's too bad. I'm not trashing the existing page till the project is complete, nor is there any point in amending the page until I have something worthwhile with which to amend it.
Feel free to bemoan my delay in getting that mega-project done, and watch me not listen . . . it's my time, not yours. Hell, I haven't updated much based on the DVD editions yet, either. If you want me to update faster, find me a patron/sponsor so I can make this my full-time job. Till then, bite me.
Besides, judging by my competition which you so adore, I don't ever have to correct my pages if I don't feel like it. :P
2 & 3. Why do you guys go crazy over the torpedo thing and "Rise"? You guys are so excitable on that topic it's like you make water in your pantaloons any time it's mentioned. The resulting dehydration may explain the goofball arguments you try to use.
A. The Rise asteroid was thought to be nickel-iron, and was to be vaporized, not pulverized. There were going to be escapees, yes, but none of any significant size. The asteroid was not vaporized, but that's because the projection was based on a falsified asteroid composition.
Analogy: If we send our navy against Liberia for a massive bombardment, predicting we can flatten every single building in a few months, but the Liberians surprise us by destroying the fleet with a nuke, does that mean the initial estimate was invalid? No.
B. Yes, torps are occasionally smaller . . . the one you're using is the rear-fire shot from Chakotay's Maquis raider in "Caretaker". Those may or may not be Starfleet-standard torpedoes, but whether they are or not is of no consequence. The overwhelming number of examples point to larger-than-2m glow.
4. How the devil do you try to claim that a just-barely-predawn shot and a way-predawn shot that follows it must involve the same day? Did Coruscant turn around in its rotation?
5. I give all the evidence needed. Look at the frickin' pictures. It's why they're there.
6.
A. Of course I don't mention the hyperspace exit. I don't mention hyperspace entrance either. Both cases could suggest zoom-zoom acceleration, but we do not know the forces involved.
B. As established, I'm not interested in antigrav acceleration, so even if you were correct it wouldn't be of importance. Hence my discovery of the ISD slowdown example that someone else referred you to. There's a page in the pipe featuring it, though again it requires the scaling project as a prerequisite.
7. There's an American small town and a SW town on the page. Both choices are well-explained.
8. You claim I'm lying because I provide a complete survey of ramming incidents and proceed accordingly. How dare I make complete use of all available evidence!
Your Other 8. I give nine numbered points of reference for my conjecture. Also, you claim I try to pass off something which I specifically identify ("may have been Borg ship-tech and not drone-tech") as not being passed off.
9. I didn't put "by far" in quotes because that precise phrasing isn't in the novel. What is in the novel is this:
"Even before an off-world traveler was close enough to understand why, he could tell that Coruscant was different from other planets. Seasoned veterans were always amazed at how strange the planet looked from space, casting not the softer blue and white shades of planets still verdant and unspoiled, but an odd silvery glow that suggested the reflection of sunlight off metal."
That means no other planet looks at all like Coruscant, even to seasoned veterans. Ergo, it is the most developed world by far.
10. You posted a link to MoO and Wong's crap? That was smashed years ago: http://www.st-v-sw.net/BB/BBindex.html
Congrats, though . . . you've "proven" I'm an evil liar based solely on the astounding evidence of your say-so.
That would almost work if only you weren't so full of crap.
I just measured the torpedo width myself, using the pic you posted, SW Anon, assuming a Dominion nacelle width of 64 meters. On my screen, the Dominion nacelle came to about 20 millimeters wide, or 3.2 meters per millimeter on my screen (15" LCD set to 1024 x 768), and the photon torpedo has a 4 millimeter diameter core glow. That comes out to a 12.8 meter wide torpedo core glow, which is about the same size as the smaller torpedo in ST Anon's TrekCore pic (I believe you were looking at the wrong torpedo).
Why are you expressing the values in milimeters? Are you using a ruler or something? The basic element of a digital image is pixel so use that. The central torpedo glow is no more than 4px in that image while the nacelle is 80px wide. If we assume a 64m nacelle the torpedo is AT MOST 3.2 meters wide. You are saying that the central torpedo glow is only five times smaller than the width of the nacelle.
For the Galor example, I'd eyeball the torpedo's core glow to be roughly two meters. But that doesn't prove that the torpedo core glows are all only about 2 meters across. G2K's own torpedo glow page shows a range of sizes for torpedoes, even for torps fired from the same ship in different episodes. G2K's page shows torp sizes ranging from a couple meters to almost 16 meters, with most figures hovering around the 5-10 meter mark. We've seen Mr. Wong, Mr. Poe, etc. choose higher-end figures from comparable ranges on other things, so I hardly think it's fair for you to criticize Mr. Anderson for taking an above-average figure in this case.
As I said those sizes come from different torpedo types which have NOTHING TO DO with small yellow type from DS9 and Voyager.
First, Picard and Data breaking out of the Scimitar, presumably with the Scimitar's shields down (since they didn't go smush against anything, after all). Note the gray shimmer.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap085.jpg
Are you listening to yourself? You say that presumably the shields are not on and then point to the grey shimmer. So basically you are saying that gray shimmer is nothing but a cloaking device effect.
So, as you can see, the Scimitar's shields definitely DO glow throughout the entire battle. The only times we do not see a shield glow are when the Enterprise rams the Scimitar and when Data and Picard break through the observation window. Since the Scimitar didn't have her shields up in the latter (as evidenced by the lack of the Scorpion going splat), the most logical conclusion is that, for whatever reason, the Scimitar did not have her shields up when the Enterprise rammed her. That conclusion is further evidenced by the fact that the Enterprise clearly only impacted the Scimitar's hull, and no other barrier (invisible or otherwise) prior to impact.
None of your low resolution images prove that the glow was emanating from the shield as opposed to cloak being disrupted. They reported the shields at 70%, there is no conceivable reason why Shinzon would lower the shields or at least order them back up when Enterprise tried to ram them. And of course there is the appeal to ignorance when you claim that maybe all the Dominion War examples are invalid since the shields were already down. Of course examples such as battle of chin'toka disprove that since Jem'Hadar fighters immediately started ramming Klingon ships and there was no glow. Odyssey was attacking three Jem'Hadar fighters and there was no glow.
2.) Taking the 3rd screencap, it still doesn't change much. The Trekcore image is larger in size (about 20% bigger). The difference changes at _worst_ to 15.6, or about 4.1 meters for the core glow. More than twice still over your previous 2 meter diameter estimate (still haven't mentioned how exactly you got that, btw with regards to the Dominion Cruiser). However, the core glow is closer to around 4.6 meters diameter. As for the Galor torpedo, it's kind of hard to gauge the diameter of the torpedo core versus the raised retangular features you call windows on the Cardassian ship. But 3 meters is more about the right width for the core glow there given a comparison to the curved "bridge" superstructure feature (approx. 35/1 ratio), which is about 100 meters wide based on the overall 200-225 meter "wingspan" of the Galor. So at worst here we have what? A couple of torps with core glow of 3-5 meters. That's still substantially larger compared to your blanket statement 2 meter size.
Trekcore torpedo is bigger since it shows the torpedo closer to the camera. The core glow is NOT 4.6 meters in diameter since it is 4px wide and the nacelle is about 80px wide. If it is 64m wide that means the torpedo is no more than 3.2 meters wide. You do realize this is still an UPPER LIMIT since the torpedo is closer to the camera than the nacelle right?
How did you measure the torpedo off the wingspan of the Galor class? It is not even visible. You could only measure it against it front bridge structure.
If we look at this ex-astris image:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/scans/factfiles/galor-top.jpg
we see that Galor is 4.1 times as long as the bridge structure. So that makes the bridge structure about 93 meters wide. In the image I provided the bridge structure is over 400px wide (we can't see the outer right side) while the torpedo is no more than 10px wide. With a 93m wide structure the torpedo comes out as 2.3 meters. Another UPPER LIMIT for the torpedo since it is closer to camera than the ship.
3.)Is the Death Star really crossing the terminator so rapidly? Compare the "Good Morning" shot at RSA's page:
http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWendorday.html
with the earlier one of the Death Star sitting at a nearly (but not quite the same) identical position during the middle of the Rebel attack. The pre-dawn view as seen from the Falcon cockpit just after the fleet drops from hyperspace is actually seems to be an oddity compared to those two; either the Death Star 2 likes to wobble about alot, or it is just plain inconsistant with the other two shots showiing the DS2 sitting right about on the terminator. Either way, there's nothing to indicate that the Death Star suddenly decided to do a super-maneuver to catch the Rebels.
I'm not going to quibble over this with you. Anyone who watches the film has clearly see it.
5.)The only actual statements I can find concerning shields is that the hanger bay _forcefields_ are up. Why go through the unnecessary trouble of putting up full shields when forcefields should suffice? It's not like everyone expects prisoners to go flying through corridors in a fighter and crash out a window. Try to keep things within the bounds of realistic expectation here. At most they might have raised shields to block Picard and Data from beaming back to the Enterprise. But then again, why would they since they discovered that the pair was attempting escape in a fighter, and simply putting up forcefields would suffice?
Wrong. When Scimitar cripples the Enterprise it's shields are reported to be at 70% strength. There is no reason or evidence that it dropped it's shields.
6.)Wrong. It shows that the Borg are capable of KE-blocking forcefields regardless of your own dishonest spin.
Yes ON THEIR SHIPS NOT ON THEIR DRONES. There is a difference. Federation also has internal forcefields. The only one lying here is you.
7.)It was the math of the situation Jack and the other genetically enhanched people calculated out. Would the Federation really lose the war or not as Jack and the others predicted? Maybe. Maybe not. But that does not by default render the population casulty figures invalid either. No one disputed that such an thing was impossible. No one disputed that the Federation could ever have 900 billion people to be killed. That's an unalterable fact, and it effected Dr. Bashir profoundly enough that he sided with Jack for a short time, and tried to persude Sisko to have the Federation surrender.
You are a funny guy.
Claims of a person locked up in a mental institute are "unalterable fact"? Do you even know what fact means? No one questioned his 900 billion figure just as no one questioned his claims to know precisely that Federation will mount a rebellion in 150 years. Bashir was fearful of the war and wanted to convince Sisko and Sisko didn't even seriously consider the surrender.
8.) Sorry, but the fanatical and foaming followers of Wong are not the end-all and be-all of debators. The fact that those people managed to trick a portion of the debators into giving up the Versus debate with a twisted understanding of the canon SW is why people are starting to slowly trickle in here at ST-V-SW.Net to see another, alternate viewpoint, flaws or no flaws.
A portion? How many debaters on Sd.net and spacebattles.com and how many are here? Yep that denial must be going strong around here.
Besides, judging by my competition which you so adore, I don't ever have to correct my pages if I don't feel like it. :P
Well that's true. Since no one takes you seriously anyway I guess you can put up pretty much anything up there.
A. The Rise asteroid was thought to be nickel-iron, and was to be vaporized, not pulverized. There were going to be escapees, yes, but none of any significant size. The asteroid was not vaporized, but that's because the projection was based on a falsified asteroid composition.
According to Kim. We have no confirmation. And the fact that there were to be escapees means that no one expected to be completely vaporized doesn't it? And certainly there is no evidence for your arbitrary 60% figure.
Analogy: If we send our navy against Liberia for a massive bombardment, predicting we can flatten every single building in a few months, but the Liberians surprise us by destroying the fleet with a nuke, does that mean the initial estimate was invalid? No.
How do you know? The fleet never demonstrated so how do you know whether the assessment was invalid?
B. Yes, torps are occasionally smaller . . . the one you're using is the rear-fire shot from Chakotay's Maquis raider in "Caretaker". Those may or may not be Starfleet-standard torpedoes, but whether they are or not is of no consequence. The overwhelming number of examples point to larger-than-2m glow.
No the ones I'm using come from episode "Call to arms" and it is fired by DS9. The "overwhelming" number of examples involve other torpedo types from different eras.
And while many are indeed larger than yellow Voyager/DS9 type NONE exhibit any "growth" and none have anything to do with issue at hand: the size of current torpedo type.
4. How the devil do you try to claim that a just-barely-predawn shot and a way-predawn shot that follows it must involve the same day? Did Coruscant turn around in its rotation?
More lies. You have no evidence that Senate establishing shot was earlier in the morning than Obi-Wan's report. You do realize that early in the morning east will look start to brighten and gain reddish color while the west will still look dark don't you?
A. Of course I don't mention the hyperspace exit. I don't mention hyperspace entrance either. Both cases could suggest zoom-zoom acceleration, but we do not know the forces involved.
Wrong. I'm not talking about the initial hyperspace exit scene. AFTER the fleet is shown exiting hyperspace there is another TWO scenes showing Endor from Home One's and Falcon's viewscreens. There is no "hyperspace effect" here.
B. As established, I'm not interested in antigrav acceleration, so even if you were correct it wouldn't be of importance. Hence my discovery of the ISD slowdown example that someone else referred you to. There's a page in the pipe featuring it, though again it requires the scaling project as a prerequisite.
I am right and eagerly expect evidence that such acceleration only works in planetary gravity well.
7. There's an American small town and a SW town on the page. Both choices are well-explained.
I already pointed out that your American town goes outside the scope of SOD and your SW town is not what Coruscant's population would have in mind.
8. You claim I'm lying because I provide a complete survey of ramming incidents and proceed accordingly. How dare I make complete use of all available evidence!
Liar. Explain the Bop And Vor'Cha rammings liar. Explain the lack of glow when Odyssey fired upon Jem'Hadar fighters liar. Explain the lack of glow on ANY SHIP in Battle of Chin'toka liar.
Your Other 8. I give nine numbered points of reference for my conjecture. Also, you claim I try to pass off something which I specifically identify ("may have been Borg ship-tech and not drone-tech") as not being passed off.
Explain what is the fundamental difference between knives, fists and bullets liar. How can the shields fail to stop a fist yet can stop a bullet? How does having forcefields on a ship translates into having forcefield on a Drone. Ships have photon torpedoes and warp cores. Maybe Drones have them too right?
9. I didn't put "by far" in quotes because that precise phrasing isn't in the novel. What is in the novel is this:
"Even before an off-world traveler was close enough to understand why, he could tell that Coruscant was different from other planets. Seasoned veterans were always amazed at how strange the planet looked from space, casting not the softer blue and white shades of planets still verdant and unspoiled, but an odd silvery glow that suggested the reflection of sunlight off metal."
That means no other planet looks at all like Coruscant, even to seasoned veterans. Ergo, it is the most developed world by far.
Again you claim "by far" liar. Where does it say by far? It doesn't say that there is no planet being 10 times or 50 times less developed by Coruscant does it? And yet you use 5 billion as benchmark.
10. You posted a link to MoO and Wong's crap? That was smashed years ago: http://www.st-v-sw.net/BB/BBindex.html
Congrats, though . . . you've "proven" I'm an evil liar based solely on the astounding evidence of your say-so.
That would almost work if only you weren't so full of crap.
Maybe in your mind.
I see I won't be able to tear down the impenetrable wall of your self deception. Yes that's it Darkie you and your band of 10 fanatics are right and the rest of us are wrong.
Why are you expressing the values in milimeters? Are you using a ruler or something? The basic element of a digital image is pixel so use that. The central torpedo glow is no more than 4px in that image while the nacelle is 80px wide. If we assume a 64m nacelle the torpedo is AT MOST 3.2 meters wide. You are saying that the central torpedo glow is only five times smaller than the width of the nacelle.
It was a quick-and-dirty measurement. I usually go into a much more in-depth process, but as I said in that post, I was feeling a bit lazy, and I was working on a couple other projects at the time. If you require a more in-depth study, though, I'll get you one sometime tomorrow (I'd do it today, but I'm going to be out of the house most of it).
Are you listening to yourself? You say that presumably the shields are not on and then point to the grey shimmer. So basically you are saying that gray shimmer is nothing but a cloaking device effect.
None of your low resolution images prove that the glow was emanating from the shield as opposed to cloak being disrupted. They reported the shields at 70%, there is no conceivable reason why Shinzon would lower the shields or at least order them back up when Enterprise tried to ram them. And of course there is the appeal to ignorance when you claim that maybe all the Dominion War examples are invalid since the shields were already down. Of course examples such as battle of chin'toka disprove that since Jem'Hadar fighters immediately started ramming Klingon ships and there was no glow. Odyssey was attacking three Jem'Hadar fighters and there was no glow.
Yes, the gray shimmer is the disturbed cloak affect, since the Scimitar obviously didn't have her shields up at the time (otherwise Picard and Data would have smacked into it). But that is not the only affect that we see. Now, granted, several of those screens were made a little hard to see by photobucket's size restrictions, and I should have cropped and highlighted them, but there are a few that clearly display both a cloak disturbance shimmer and a shield glow, and the pics that show weapons impacts and shield glow when the cloak is down clearly demonstrate that the Scimitar's shields DO, in fact, glow.
Quantum torpedo impact, clearly showing an inner blue-white shield flash with the grayish shimmer halo of the cloak disturbance. There is a clear gap between the inner flash and the outer halo, clearly visible even in that picture.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap098.jpg
And again, another Quantum torpedo impact, clearly showing the inner blue-white shield flash with the outer grayish cloak disturbance halo, even with this 'low resolution image'.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap099.jpg
And then how about these pics? The ones where there's a flash when the cloak is down.
Scimitar's port nacelle, which is not cloaked. Oh look! It flashes!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap097.jpg
See this gold flashy thing around the phaser impact, where there is no cloak distortion? I can see it in the damned thumbnail, so you should be able to see it in the full-sized image.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap100.jpg
And then there's this obvious flash/glow after the cloak is down. But, maybe it's just a grainy distortion, hmm?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap100.jpg
And then what about this flash, again after the cloak is down? Is that another grainy distortion, or am I just imagining this one?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/FleetAdmiral1SFTS/cap103.jpg
Deny those, Mr. Anon, show me how those don't clearly show that the Scimitar's shields do, in fact, glow.
Also, with your Dominion War examples, I'm guessing that you're the same SW Anon who was just so recently arguing that the TNG "Cause and Effect" weapons ranges were invalid because we had no way of knowing if the Phoenix moved any great distance towards or away from the 2-dimensional plane of view on the viewscreen. That's amusing, because you seem to be insisting here that no weapons fire could have been exchanged without us seeing it, yet we have no way of knowing for sure that no weapons fire was exchanged before the ships closed to that range. For all we know, they had been exchanging fire well before they had closed to that range. In most cases from the Dominion War, you can't prove that they didn't. Since we know that Trek weapons ranges are greater than just a couple of kilometers (whether you agree to the hundreds of thousands of km or not), it is entirely possible that they had already been exchanging fire, and that some ships had lost shields.
So they glow green when hit by disruptors, sometimes red and white blue when hit by quantums. So what evidence do you have they will glow at all when being rammed.
And you completely ignored that Jem'Hadar fighters haven't fired upon the Klingon ships before ramming them. Secondly why would Jem'Hadar fighters be ramming the ships which already lost shields? Why not dispatch them with weapons fire? Why didn't Jem'Hadar fighters display any shield glow when fired upon by Odyssey? Did they loose the shields as well? If so how come main phasers couldn't harm an unshielded vessel? What about battle for Chin'toka? We see the platforms activating and starting to fire and in the next scene we see ships getting hit and no shield glow is present. Did they all loose the shields already? Did every single ship we've seen hit lost the shields? What about Way of the Warrior or Call to arms. Did all of the dozens of ships we've seen hit lost their shields? What about Changing face of evil? We see the fleets closing and no shots are fired and then Sisko orders quantum torpedoes and in the next scene we see Defiant firing on a Breen vessel. No shield glow. No shield glow on any of the ships.
Out of all those examples we just happened to see the ships which have lost the shields right?
And you compare that to "Wounded" where we can't see the third dimension and which directly contradicts the observed examples.
Whatever; believe what you will.
Or what about Centaur vs Jem'Hadar fighter. Did Centaur already lost it's shields by the time the scene cuts? If so how come polaron beams didn't cause any visible damage?
I could go on forever.
I get distracted when my old EF clan comes back from the dead and look what happens.
Aww well...
At the end of my 45 year stay on that island, I guess a few shots were still fired pass the bunker though.
Missed me I guess, must have been stormtroopers. ^____^
Oh and Ilithi, thanks very much for linking to those pictures *copy/paste*
1.) I didn't estimate the torpedo based on the main "wingspan" directly (you are correct that there is no way to do that in the image provided), I used the half-circular shaped bridge structure, which is nearly fully visible in the image. In the image here:
http://www.startreksite.com/diagrams/cardassian_galor_top.jpg
you can see the "bridge" superstructure section, which is nearly exactly half the main overall width of the ship. If you use David Stipe's 450 meter number for the ship, you wind up with a bridge superstructure 112 meters wide. Also, even if I were to except your dubious estimate of 2.3 meter as an "upper limit", which you claim is still somehow significantly close enough to the camera, it still shows a larger-than-2 meter wide torpedo glow. One which is still a statistical outliner compared to other examples, including the ones in "Rise" itself, which is what we are really concerned with here.
3.) We are talking about the same escape scene in Nemesis, right? You point to the battle at the end, yet I am speaking of when Picard and Data are escaping in the Scorpion fighter. Where did anyone mention the ship's full shields being up? My point still stands. At that time, when the Scorpion fighter smashes out the window, the distortion we see is likely cloak only. Later, we see distortions that are likely cloak and shields, since as you point out, it is clearly stated the shields are up, even after a massive bombardment from three different ships.
There's another thing here; the Nemesis example, even if we take it as you want us to, is simply another statistical outliner compared to what... two-dozen examples to the contrary?
4.)You keep again trying to dance around that Jack and the other genetically enhanced people's estimates carried enough weight to have an effect on Dr. Bashir. On top of that, Jack and the others were correct in observations on other issues. If that is not enough, consider that their estimate and the events of "Statistical Probability" is well before "In the Pale Moonlight" and the Romulans joining in against the Dominion. Before that, the best the Federation-Klingon alliance was managing on it's own against the Dominion was a draw.
But since you need a reminder...
Jack emerges from his room to get a closer look, as if
drawn by the sound of Damar's voice. Even Sarina is
listening.
LAUREN DAMAR
Who's he? (in background)
The war with the
BASHIR Federation accomplished
Damar -- the new head of our goals. Cardassia is
the Cardassian government. strong again, an empire
to be feared. We are
JACK safe behind secure
"Uneasy lies the head borders, and no one will
that wears the crown." ever dare attack us again.
Bashir has never seen the group focus on anything
before, and it intrigues him.
PATRICK DAMAR
(with sympathy) From this position of
He's sad. strength, we are poised
to take another bold step
LAUREN that will insure our
Ashamed is more like it. future.
(dramatic pause)
While O'Brien listens to the speech, Bashir looks
around at the group. He's not quite sure what to make
of their comments.
DAMAR
Peace.
BASHIR (a long beat)
(to Lauren)
Why do you say that?
O'BRIEN DAMAR
(to Bashir) It is time to bring an
Shhh. end to this war with the
Federation. It is time
LAUREN for us to rebuild on the
He looks like a man who foundation of strength
doesn't sleep. we have laid.
(beat)
JACK The sons of Cardassia
"Methought I heard a shed their blood to
voice cry, 'Sleep no defend their home. Their
more! Damar does murder sacrifice must not be in
sleep!'" vain.
DEEP SPACE NINE: "Statistical... " - REV. 10/1/97 - ACT TWO 23*.
18 CONTINUED: (2)
PATRICK DAMAR
(realizing) The peace we seek will
He killed someone. honor their memory, and
preserve the gains for
LAUREN which they gave their
(agreeing) lives.
Someone close to him. (beat)
Bashir and O'Brien exchange a look. They can't
understand how Jack and the others are seeing all these
things.
O'BRIEN DAMAR
(to Bashir) Today I challenge the
How could they know that? Federation to answer my
call for peace. I'm
JACK ready at any time to meet
(pointing at Damar) with its representatives
Pretender! You don't to discuss how we can
belong on that throne and bring an end to
you know it. hostilities. As your
leader, I pledge that I
PATRICK will do everything in my
Someone's making him say power to protect
all this. He doesn't Cardassia and allow us
want to. to move forward into a
new era.
(beat)
This I vow with my life's
blood.
And with that, the transmission ENDS and the screen
returns to the Cardassian emblem. Bashir looks at the
group trying to understand what's happened.
BASHIR
Did any of you know who Damar was
before today?
DEEP SPACE NINE: "Statistical... " - REV. 10/23/97 - ACT TWO 24.
18 CONTINUED: (3)
JACK
No, but it's obvious who he is.
The Pretender who killed the king
and seized the throne.
LAUREN
Not the king, he's still alive.
PATRICK
The queen maybe?
(even better)
Or a princess.
BASHIR
Yes. Gul Dukat's daughter. Her
name was Ziyal.
JACK
And now the Pretender finds
himself in league with a... a Dark
Knight he can't control.
O'BRIEN
(to Bashir)
Weyoun?
How can these people be so wrong about a 900 billion casulty figure, and yet be right about the above?
Again the Jack Pack proven right a second time...
SISKO
What is it?
BASHIR
It shows how you can break down
tri-nucleic fungus to make yridium
bicantizine -- one of the active
ingredients in Ketracel White.
That's why the Dominion wants the
Kabrel System -- so they can
manufacture the drug here in the
Alpha Quadrant.
Sisko reacts -- it's clear he's impressed by this
analysis.
BASHIR
According to our calculations,
they'd be able to make enough
White to supply the Jem'Hadar
indefinitely.
DEEP SPACE NINE: "Statistical... " - REV. 10/23/97 - ACT THREE 33.
27 CONTINUED:
SISKO
(grim)
I was going to recommend that the
Federation accept the proposed
border. It could've cost us the
Alpha Quadrant.
BASHIR
Actually, sir -- we should let
them have Kabrel.
So again, "insane" or not, how come they are wrong with one, and not with the other two?
5.) In denial over what? That slowly people are starting to find out there's something else out there other than Wong's bullshit? And Space Battles does have a few active pro-Wars mods who do not tolerate anyone actively denying the ICS' validity, so that's another poor example. Despite that there's been and are plenty of people who question ICS and Wars' supposed superiority over most over SF franchises.
1.) I didn't estimate the torpedo based on the main "wingspan" directly (you are correct that there is no way to do that in the image provided), I used the half-circular shaped bridge structure, which is nearly fully visible in the image. In the image here:
http://www.startreksite.com/diagrams/cardassian_galor_top.jpg
you can see the "bridge" superstructure section, which is nearly exactly half the main overall width of the ship. If you use David Stipe's 450 meter number for the ship, you wind up with a bridge superstructure 112 meters wide. Also, even if I were to except your dubious estimate of 2.3 meter as an "upper limit", which you claim is still somehow significantly close enough to the camera, it still shows a larger-than-2 meter wide torpedo glow. One which is still a statistical outliner compared to other examples, including the ones in "Rise" itself, which is what we are really concerned with here.
Dubious? Do you have a JPEG editor? Can you count? Please show me how the superstructure is less than 400px wide and photon torpedo more than 10px wide in the image I provided. Because that is the only way the torpedo can be more than 2 meters or so. Secondly Galor class is consistently shown to be 380 meters unless shown next to the Defiant which is known for it's size flexibility. So really give some evidence that it is larger. And finally you don't know whether it shows larger than 2 meters torpedo since this is an upper limit. You do realize why this is an upper limit.
Finally what possible reason would I have to think that torpedo from Rise is bigger? Darkstar bullshit scaling where he scales the torpedo at the last possible moment just as it is about the left the camera view?
Let's take a look at this image:
http://www.geocities.com/idesdjurdja/dauntless_torp.jpg
A torpedo is about to strike the Dauntless which we know from a master systems display has 7 decks and is about 20-30 meters tall depending on the size of the decks.
So how big is that torpedo? It is no more than 13px wide while the Dauntless is 217px in height where the torpedo is about to strike. That makes the torpedo no more than 2 meters wide.
Even better look at the windows. What are the windows 10 meters tall? The ship was a trap but Arturis went out of his way to lay a very elaborate trap.
Of course looking here:
http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWtorpglow.html#Hope
we see that Darkstar claims that torpedoes grow to 7-10 meters based once again on his bullshit assumption that torpedoes coming towards the camera makes no difference.
Using his 7-10 meters numbers we would get over 800-1200 meters for the Dauntless.
Good one Darkstar.
4.)You keep again trying to dance around that Jack and the other genetically enhanced people's estimates carried enough weight to have an effect on Dr. Bashir. On top of that, Jack and the others were correct in observations on other issues. If that is not enough, consider that their estimate and the events of "Statistical Probability" is well before "In the Pale Moonlight" and the Romulans joining in against the Dominion. Before that, the best the Federation-Klingon alliance was managing on it's own against the Dominion was a draw.
Bashir was a moron for letting himself be convinced. It' simple as that. Honestly what intelligent person would buy Jack's claims that in 150 years Federation will lead some kind of rebellion when no one can say for certain what policies and military strength Dominion will have positioned in Federation space in as little as 10 years.
I reiterate: your insistence in using arguments from people LOCKED UP IN A MENTAL INSTITUTION shows quite nicely how fanatical you are.
5.) In denial over what? That slowly people are starting to find out there's something else out there other than Wong's bullshit? And Space Battles does have a few active pro-Wars mods who do not tolerate anyone actively denying the ICS' validity, so that's another poor example. Despite that there's been and are plenty of people who question ICS and Wars' supposed superiority over most over SF franchises.
Yeah sure. Where are all those people? All i see is the same old fanatics.
1.)Er, please prove that the Galor (or Keldon varient class) is consistantly 380 meters long as shown next to everything else but the Defiant. That in and of itself would take quite a doing.
We also have here in this image what appears to be a torp from "Emissary" of considerably larger size than the one you keep trying to shove on us from "A Call to Arms":
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=332
Before you bitch about distance, note the glow on the Galor's hull here much as the glow on the Dauntless' hull.
Speaking of glow reflection on the Dauntless' hull:
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=176&pos=590
The torp appears larger here as it passes over the Dauntless' warp nacelle. The torp cannot be much closer to the camera, except for the fact that it's flying over a portion of the Dauntless that is also nearer to the camera. The difference between the height and the glow is about 8.58 to 1. The MSD I believe you refer here:
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=176&pos=139
shows that area, including nacelles to be about 6 decks deep, or about 20 meters deep (that's making for an average deck height of 3.25 meters), or about 2.33 meters wide for the core glow. Another way to look at this is the warp nacelle itself, which is roughly two full decks deep according the MSD. Since the nacelle is closer to our camera than the main hull, it's actually a bit better to use. About 1.94 to 1 is a fair ratio given the nacelle side is 68 pixels tall and th torp is 35 pixels tall. in the height to torpedo, and this favors the nacelle height over the torp since the torp is actually slightly inboard as it travels along the top middle of the nacelle itself. This gives us actually a slightly larger torp at 3.35 meters wide. But remember that the torp is inboard of the nacelle's side, thus slightly reducing it's apparent height. So the torp width is inconsistant as it travels along the side of the ship!
3.) The only fanatic here is you, as you cannot and have not provided any counter evidence to the Jack group's 900 billion casulty figure except to scream over and over "MENTAL INSTITUTION!" as if that's all that's needed. Come on, they proved they could be of significant use in identifying important strategic information. You keep wallowing in this self-denial. But I'll spell it out for you again:
a.) The Jack Pack correctly figured out from Damar's speech how he rose to power (learning important details like Ziyal's death at Damar's hands)all without any prior knowledge.
b.) They listened to the peace talks and determined that the Dominion was stalling for time, and that the Federation would be wise not to sign it.
But keep whistling past the graveyard, fantatic...
I know! Let me list some times that other things were wrong... We'll know if jack is more reliable then them at least... or in this case, it.
"I have you now!" Darth Vadar
"This is the end for you, my master." Darth Vadar
"If I don't get my new powers, you will die!" Anakin Skywalker
"This will be a day long remembered. It has seen the end of Kenobi, and will soon see the end of the Rebellion." Darth Vadar
"The oppression of the Sith will never return! You have lost!" Mace
"You underestimate my power!" Darth Vadar
"It is of no concern. Soon the Rebellion will be crushed and young Skywalker will be one of us." Palpatine
"I'm looking forward to completing your training. In time, you will call me 'Master.'" Palpatine
"From here you will witness the final destruction of the Alliance — and the end of your insignificant rebellion." Palpatine
"And now, young Skywalker … you will die." Palpatine
Just pointing out that not everything is right all the time...
I especially like the first and last one...
1.)Er, please prove that the Galor (or Keldon varient class) is cons