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Alderaan shield
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SailorSaturumon13
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's also the plausible reason why Coruscant was left unscathed by the overhead battle in ROT


Which is described in ROTS novel as devastated.
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Vympel
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Newland wrote:

Oh, one more point. We know that large shields like that incinerate starships (ROTJ novelization), and if that were true, the atmosphere would be vaped.


For one, the RotJ novelization says nothing about the DS2 shield "incinerating" starships, a pair of fighters simply nick it and are destroyed (i.e. a physical impact). Second, you are relying on the assumption that the shield will interact strongly with atmosphere.
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Captain Newland
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vympel wrote:
Captain Newland wrote:

Oh, one more point. We know that large shields like that incinerate starships (ROTJ novelization), and if that were true, the atmosphere would be vaped.


For one, the RotJ novelization says nothing about the DS2 shield "incinerating" starships, a pair of fighters simply nick it and are destroyed (i.e. a physical impact).

Actually, I believe that it describes a Rebel cap ship colliding with the shields and being vaped. I can't find my copy of the novel right now, but I'll look for it and get a quote soon.

Quote:
Second, you are relying on the assumption that the shield will interact strongly with atmosphere.

Well, the Alderaan shield you people keep claiming was within the atmosphere, and second, the "shield" in AOTC was pretty close to the atmosphere. Also, if it had been interacting with the atmosphere, it would have incinerated it.
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Vympel
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Newland wrote:

Actually, I believe that it describes a Rebel cap ship colliding with the shields and being vaped. I can't find my copy of the novel right now, but I'll look for it and get a quote soon.


I have it:

Quote:
Some didn't make it. Three flanking X-wings nicked the invisible deflector shield, spinning out of control, exploding in flames along the shield surface.


They simply nicked it, spun out of control, and exploded against it.

Quote:

Well, the Alderaan shield you people keep claiming was within the atmosphere


I am aware of no one who I know on the Alderaan-had-a-shield side who claims that the shield was within the atmosphere. It was an extra-atmospheric effect in the original version of Episode IV, it remains one now in the SE/DVD edition.

Quote:
and second, the "shield" in AOTC was pretty close to the atmosphere. Also, if it had been interacting with the atmosphere, it would have incinerated it.


Not that I agree that AotC shows a planetary shield, but like I just said, you are assuming that the shield would for some reason "incinerate" the atmosphere. That makes no sense- it's not supported by the RotJ quote, it's not supported by other incidences of shields in atmosphere (in particular, the Hoth shield).
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Captain Newland
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vympel wrote:
Captain Newland wrote:

Actually, I believe that it describes a Rebel cap ship colliding with the shields and being vaped. I can't find my copy of the novel right now, but I'll look for it and get a quote soon.


I have it:

Quote:
Some didn't make it. Three flanking X-wings nicked the invisible deflector shield, spinning out of control, exploding in flames along the shield surface.


They simply nicked it, spun out of control, and exploded against it.

Nah, that's not it. I'm talking about a capital ship. Luke was looking out the window and saw a ship incinerated (god damn, I have to find those novels).

Quote:
Quote:

Well, the Alderaan shield you people keep claiming was within the atmosphere


I am aware of no one who I know on the Alderaan-had-a-shield side who claims that the shield was within the atmosphere. It was an extra-atmospheric effect in the original version of Episode IV, it remains one now in the SE/DVD edition.

Actually, as the pics I provided earlier demonstrate, there is no extra-atmospheric glow.

Quote:
Quote:
and second, the "shield" in AOTC was pretty close to the atmosphere. Also, if it had been interacting with the atmosphere, it would have incinerated it.


Not that I agree that AotC shows a planetary shield, but like I just said, you are assuming that the shield would for some reason "incinerate" the atmosphere. That makes no sense- it's not supported by the RotJ quote, it's not supported by other incidences of shields in atmosphere (in particular, the Hoth shield).

I'll have to find the quote in the ROTJ novel, but as to the Hoth shield claim, that wasn't a huge, hundreds-of-KM-covering shields. The one surrounding the DS (and I accept that I have no evidence for that at this time) incinerated ships. I won't post again on this thread until I can confirm or deny the existence of this quote.
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Vympel
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Newland wrote:

Nah, that's not it. I'm talking about a capital ship. Luke was looking out the window and saw a ship incinerated (god damn, I have to find those novels).


I'm pretty sure you're misremembering, perhaps Luke watching the superlaser destroy a Rebel ship. Anyway, satisfy yourself, but I'll look at the RotJ novel all the same, though I'm pretty sure that's the only reference to an impact with the shield.

Quote:

Actually, as the pics I provided earlier demonstrate, there is no extra-atmospheric glow.


The glow on the right hand side of Alderaan upon superlaser impact is necessarily extra-atmospheric (see the animated .gif). The atmosphere simply doesn't extend that far. Besides, a shield within the atmosphere makes no sense whatsoever, the planet would still be wrecked from bombardment if that was the case.

Quote:

I'll have to find the quote in the ROTJ novel, but as to the Hoth shield claim, that wasn't a huge, hundreds-of-KM-covering shields. The one surrounding the DS (and I accept that I have no evidence for that at this time) incinerated ships. I won't post again on this thread until I can confirm or deny the existence of this quote.


Ok then, but as for the Hoth shield, you haven't given me a reason why a huge shield would incinerate the atmosphere but the Hoth shield wouldn't. or why the shield "incinerating" an enemy ship would mean it would incinerate the atmosphere.
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Captain Newland
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
[quote="Vympel"]
Captain Newland wrote:

Nah, that's not it. I'm talking about a capital ship. Luke was looking out the window and saw a ship incinerated (god damn, I have to find those novels).


I'm pretty sure you're misremembering, perhaps Luke watching the superlaser destroy a Rebel ship. Anyway, satisfy yourself, but I'll look at the RotJ novel all the same, though I'm pretty sure that's the only reference to an impact with the shield.

Found my books! I have the quote right here in front of me:

"Luke watched in horror, as another rebel ship toppled against the unseeable deflector shield, exploding in a fiery concussion."(ROTJ novel, chapter 7, pg 442, 2nd paragraph on the page)

Quote:
Quote:

Actually, as the pics I provided earlier demonstrate, there is no extra-atmospheric glow.


The glow on the right hand side of Alderaan upon superlaser impact is necessarily extra-atmospheric (see the animated .gif). The atmosphere simply doesn't extend that far.

Yes it does. The lines drawn show the planets boundries, since we cannot see the righthand side of the planet because it's night time.

Quote:
Besides, a shield within the atmosphere makes no sense whatsoever, the planet would still be wrecked from bombardment if that was the case.

Nevertheless, it seemes to be the situation. Of course, being on the anti-shield side, I am not required to explain it away.

Quote:
Quote:

I'll have to find the quote in the ROTJ novel, but as to the Hoth shield claim, that wasn't a huge, hundreds-of-KM-covering shields. The one surrounding the DS (and I accept that I have no evidence for that at this time) incinerated ships. I won't post again on this thread until I can confirm or deny the existence of this quote.


Ok then, but as for the Hoth shield, you haven't given me a reason why a huge shield would incinerate the atmosphere but the Hoth shield wouldn't. or why the shield "incinerating" an enemy ship would mean it would incinerate the atmosphere.

The reason is irrelevant. We have two different forms of shielding here: huge, many KM covering shields, and smaller shields only covering a few KM. The Hoth shield didn't incinerate things, but the big one around the DS does.
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Vympel
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Newland wrote:


"Luke watched in horror, as another rebel ship toppled against the unseeable deflector shield, exploding in a fiery concussion."(ROTJ novel, chapter 7, pg 442, 2nd paragraph on the page)


This proves nothing- ship's explode against solid objects all the time- see the Executor's death dive against the Death Star 2. It's not being "incinerated" upon contact.

Quote:

Yes it does. The lines drawn show the planets boundries, since we cannot see the righthand side of the planet because it's night time.


The righthand side lights up on the hit. The halo extends past it.

[quote]

Quote:

The reason is irrelevant.


No it isn't. Your claiming that something will happen. You have not justified why it would.

Quote:
We have two different forms of shielding here: huge, many KM covering shields, and smaller shields only covering a few KM. The Hoth shield didn't incinerate things, but the big one around the DS does.


See above. There is a big difference between colliding into something and exploding (as both the X-Wings and the miscellaneous Rebel ship proves) and being "incinerated", let alone assuming that the shield would for some reason incinerate atmosphere- i.e. assuming it must interact strongly with same. Not to mention that you haven't given me a reason to assume that the Hoth and a larger shield are different in anything but scale, or why a difference in scale would result in "incineration" in one case and not the other.
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Captain Newland
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vympel wrote:
Captain Newland wrote:


"Luke watched in horror, as another rebel ship toppled against the unseeable deflector shield, exploding in a fiery concussion."(ROTJ novel, chapter 7, pg 442, 2nd paragraph on the page)


This proves nothing- ship's explode against solid objects all the time- see the Executor's death dive against the Death Star 2. It's not being "incinerated" upon contact.

I suppose you're right. I concede this issue.

Quote:
Quote:

Yes it does. The lines drawn show the planets boundries, since we cannot see the righthand side of the planet because it's night time.


The righthand side lights up on the hit. The halo extends past it.

What halo?

[quote]

Quote:
Quote:

The reason is irrelevant.


No it isn't. Your claiming that something will happen. You have not justified why it would.

I justified it by saying that huge shields incinerate things. As I have been proven wrong, I won't continue to argue this.
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Naughty Nexy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What halo?


I believe he's referring to this and this.

Note the "halo" of light on the right side of the planet. This is the shield.
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The Swede
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Newland wrote:
What halo?


Naughty Nexy wrote:
I believe he's referring to this and this.

Note the "halo" of light on the right side of the planet. This is the shield.

Yes indeed. Again, the picture Alderaan-Frame02.jpg clearly shows the beam/shield interaction. It's also evident that this takes place high above the atmosphere, just look at how long the beam continues after having interacted with the shield. About 5.5 % of the visible length of the beam in the shot is between the shield and the point of impact on the surface. I don't know what you guys think, but I would call that irrefutable evidence of an extra-atmospheric planetary shield.
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Captain Newland
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naughty Nexy wrote:
Quote:
What halo?


I believe he's referring to this and this.

Note the "halo" of light on the right side of the planet. This is the shield.

Didn't you guys look at the pics I provided? That halo is simply atmospheric glow. If you so desperately want more proof, I'll provide them AGAIN, but only if I have to.
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The Swede
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What halo?


Naughty Nexy wrote:
I believe he's referring to this and this.

Note the "halo" of light on the right side of the planet. This is the shield.

Captain Newland wrote:
Didn't you guys look at the pics I provided? That halo is simply atmospheric glow. If you so desperately want more proof, I'll provide them AGAIN, but only if I have to.

Captain Newland, as I've already pointed out, the halo is extra-atmospheric. A.o. things, the beam extends far too long from the interaction point for it to be rationalized as being atmospheric glow.

I don't know (I haven't checked) if others replied to the pictures you posted (from DSG2k's site), but as far as I can remember, you forget where the beam hits the planet. The glow doesn't have to extend past the radius of the planet, given the angle that we see the beam strike the planet from (hopefully someone more capable than me in geometry could explain it better).
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Naughty Nexy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Newland wrote:

Didn't you guys look at the pics I provided?


Yes. Two of yours are exactly the same as mine. And cloud pattern has nothing to do with the extra-atmospheric glow.

Quote:
That halo is simply atmospheric glow.


Atmosphere doesn't extend that far in a terrestrial world, unless you mean to suggest that Alderaan is abnormal and have proof of such an assessment.

Quote:
If you so desperately want more proof, I'll provide them AGAIN, but only if I have to.


Please.
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JAFisher444
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That halo is simply atmospheric glow. If you so desperately want more proof, I'll provide them AGAIN, but only if I have to.


I am confused about this "atmospheric glow" what causes it?
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SailorSaturumon13
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JAFisher444 wrote:
Quote:
That halo is simply atmospheric glow. If you so desperately want more proof, I'll provide them AGAIN, but only if I have to.


I am confused about this "atmospheric glow" what causes it?


light refraction from the place where the beam hits Alderaan, starting mass-energy conversion.
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JAFisher444
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Light refraction within an atmosphere from a point on the ground is limited to an area far smaller than the area effected in the Alderaan screen caps.

What matter - energy conversion?
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Mr. Oragahn
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bumped for good measure, since concerned people are too lazy to do it themselves
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