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Alderaan shield
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The Swede
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Swede wrote:
McAvoy wrote:
If the planet is Earth sized, the aura that covers the planet regardless if it's a shield or or not, looks like it's extending past the surface by 100 kilometers give or take. Now I am sure I am stating something that already has been discussed many, many times before but, what the hell:

Has anyone considered regardless if there's a shield or not, that the effect of the superlaser hitting the atmosphere would cause it to glow? Would that be too hard to agree on?


Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Super fast extending atmosphere isn't out of question, and we've seen that the coronal glow - which some people claim to be evidence for the planetary shield - doesn't even extend beyond planetary radius, which definitively shoots down the argument of the glowing and encompassing shield.

It's good to see you back, Mr. Oragahn!

The glow DOES extend beyond the planet's radius, as evidenced in screenshots. The precise point where the superlaser beam hits the planetary shield can also be discerned.

Captain Newland wrote:
Um, if I may just interject here for a moment, the glow does NOT extend beyond the planet radius. This is apparent because when we see Alderaan, it is not in a perfect circle. Some of the right side is missing, which is the fault of the sun (it was night time over there). Here are a few screencaps. (modified silghtly by G2K).






We could not see the full planet because of the night time on the right side, and it therefor LOOKED as if there was a shield of some sort, but it is simply more atmospheric glow.

Oh, pretty circles... You must look at the point of impact, Captain Newland, and put that in relation to "our" vantage point. We don't see the hit directly from the front. In any case, in the picture ANHDVD-Aldblow01sm-wcirc.jpg we see the beam/shield interaction.
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Rogue 9
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Rolling Eyes

I would think this wouldn't need explanation, but for the terminally blind: A direct impact on the planet wouldn't spread like that; it would bore into the planet. It also would not produce extra-atmospheric glow.


Last edited by Rogue 9 on Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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Captain Newland
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was no extra-atmospheric glow. Also, did it maybe occure to you that that glow might just be (*Gasp!*) the atmosphere being vaped?
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GStone
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I would think this wouldn't need explanation, but for the terminally blind: A direct impact on the planet wouldn't spread like that; it would bore into the planet. It also would not produce extra-atmospheric glow.


You're singling out of a piece of evidence from every other one on this issue, including the one Darkstar provided on determining the placement of the atmosphere for the right side of the planet in the sequence you have provided, is something you do need to drop.

You are also saying it will bore into the planet, based on your usage of the SL being DET. You need to go to that thread and read why it is a disaproven and very outdated theory.

It's been a while since you've posted here, so you should brush up on what has been discussed in your absence. It'll save everyone's time.
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Dark Hellion
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gstone, only in your braindead world did you disprove DET. There is not reason for the initial SL impact to not be DET and you never proved that the reaction is a result of a non-DET SL. You have to provide an alternate theory that the evidence fits, not manufacture an unknown that supposedly fits the evidence. I don't say that microscopic demons who love the opposite gender of demon make magnets attract, dispite the fact that this accurately explains magnetisms effects.
And their is extra-Atmospheric glow Newland, if not, you wouldn't see it. The atmosphere does not vaporize, it coudl atomize, or become plasma or quagma, but all of these would have profound effects on the cloud cover (aka no clouds would exist). No matter what kind of weapon hit, the clouds around the beam should instantly part, which is not seen, and thus some type of shield or device must be stoping the blast.
This isn't rocket surgery people, you have to only look at the results and you should see a shield or at least a very odd atmospheric reation completely uncommon to any interaction of an earthlike, or near earth world. Since the shield is a better explaination given that it is a logical step of their technology (the Hoth shield) and the atmospheric explaination has no evidence, the general result of anyone should be that Alderaan possesses some form of shielding where the SL struck.
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Avatar Of Narendra III
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just sticking my head in the door, what is the justification for the fact that the visuals do not indicate a SW style shield, do you have a reason for the visual weapon - shield interaction to be so radically different from any other method of shielding seen in the entire SW universe.
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The Swede
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar Of Narendra III wrote:
Just sticking my head in the door, what is the justification for the fact that the visuals do not indicate a SW style shield, do you have a reason for the visual weapon - shield interaction to be so radically different from any other method of shielding seen in the entire SW universe.

In addition to the pictures being blurry, the circles DSG2k has drawn around Alderaan obscures the characteristic shield. The shield effect can be seen encircling the ENTIRE planet (even the area in shadow) before the SL beam strikes its target (as is shown in the animation Rogue 9 has provided which also shows the beam/shield interaction more clearly). The initial beam/shield interaction is clearly seen in the picture with the filename ANHDVD-Aldblow01sm-wcirc.jpeg (the same picture also shows that DSG2k has exaggerated the area of the planet that is in shadow).
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Avatar Of Narendra III
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure you understood me, the glow encircling the globe is unlike any other shield - weapons interaction ever seen in star wars, shield hits are shown as bright flashes of light/explosions, rather than the more Star trek style bubble shields.
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The Swede
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Avatar Of Narendra III wrote:
I'm not sure you understood me, the glow encircling the globe is unlike any other shield - weapons interaction ever seen in star wars, shield hits are shown as bright flashes of light/explosions, rather than the more Star trek style bubble shields.

Oh, alright I see what you mean. Well, we have seen shield effects quite similar to what we've seen in Star Trek. There's the Droideka shielding, the Gungan shields and there's the shields of Anakin's fighter from TPM. As for beam/shields interaction, we see a turbolaser bolt striking the Falcon in TESB with a result quite similar to what we see in ANH, i.e. a dispersion effect. I've looked for screenshots, but the only ones I've found are on Mike Wong's site and it's not quite the picture I was looking for (on my TESB DVD PAL 25 fps, the dispersion effect can be seen over three frames, with a maximum dispersion effect in the second frame). Anyway, pictures can be found at: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Beam/Calc1.html (remember that only the first frame of the dispersion can be seen).
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Dark Hellion
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually AoN, the shield interaction is almost the same as that when fighters crash into the shields of IDSs in RotJ. It is a brief, bright, disclolored flash that quickly goes away. This flash is intense enough to be white instead of the greenish tinted color of the ISD interactions, but the rest is very similar, especially the way that it propogates.
So yes, visually the shield interaction is very similar to other shields seen in the Original Trilogy. The fact that it interacts differently that Droideka shields or the Gungan shields is not evidence that it is not a shield, as even the original trilogy shows that many different types of shields are used, the DS1 and DSII had very different shield systems, and yet both are canonically shielded.
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GStone
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Gstone, only in your braindead world did you disprove DET.


1. You have been warned before about making personal attacks. Stop it. Moving on.
2. You're right. It wasn't me. It was me and everyone else in that thread that provided arguments against DET. Moving on.

Quote:
There is not reason for the initial SL impact to not be DET...


...other than just you saying so, as well as all the other people that don't want to believe it...[/quote]

Moving on.

Quote:
...and you never proved that the reaction is a result of a non-DET SL.


Yes, I did, so did everyone else that provided arguments for a not DET method. Moving on.

Quote:
You have to provide an alternate theory that the evidence fits, not manufacture an unknown that supposedly fits the evidence.


Except, incomplete theories that give a general idea of what is happening have been provided. Until further evidence can be obtained, it's enough. Reread the thread. MO.

Quote:
I don't say that microscopic demons who love the opposite gender of demon make magnets attract, dispite the fact that this accurately explains magnetisms effects.


And you complain that WE don't know enough about science. MO.

Quote:
This isn't rocket surgery people, you have to only look at the results and you should see a shield or at least a very odd atmospheric reation completely uncommon to any interaction of an earthlike, or near earth world.


Unless you want to call "atmospheric brightening" something that couldn't happen toDAY, eventhough it happens every DAY. SUN-DAY. MonDAY. TuesDAY. WednesDAY. ThursDAY. FriDAY. SaturDAY.

If there were months and years with DAY in it, I'd say them, too.

Quote:
Since the shield is a better explaination...


...only if you ignore the rest of the evidence that's anti-shield...

[quote]...given that it is a logical step of their technology (the Hoth shield) and the atmospheric explaination has no evidence...

...other than it could have just brightened...

Quote:
..., the general result of anyone should be that Alderaan possesses some form of shielding where the SL struck.


If you want to put an atmosphere in the same vein, as force field effects that surround fighters and capital ships and the result of equipment that can beat back "any bombardment" over a small area, then yeah. Atmosphere is a shield. That's why blasters don't work at all when they are used on a planet. Panaka shooting out the glass in the palace, it was all a holographic projection to confuse the battle droids who themselves had unusable blasters in the palace. Why do you think the battle droids weapons couldn't get through the gungans' shield? It wasn't because of their shield.

It was because the atmosphere on the planet kept it from going anywhere.

You really do need to try to come up with a better answer to make it look like there really was a shield when there isn't.
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Captain Newland
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
Gstone, only in your braindead world did you disprove DET.



1. You have been warned before about making personal attacks. Stop it. Moving on.

Quite right. Hellion, you already have 2 warnings. I let you off last time, and I'm doing it again, but if you do this again, you are gone. Remember, once more, and you're gone.
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dakarne
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So yes, visually the shield interaction is very similar to other shields seen in the Original Trilogy. The fact that it interacts differently that Droideka shields or the Gungan shields is not evidence that it is not a shield, as even the original trilogy shows that many different types of shields are used, the DS1 and DSII had very different shield systems, and yet both are canonically shielded.


Quite Right in Revenge of the Sith, the entire Facility on Mustafar was shielded, the shields react to intense heat by glowing white from the looks of things....

Sort of like Alderaan glowed white... (if it were atmospheric glow from the atmosphere being burned, how come the Land below remained green... until of course the Laser Punched through the shield and destroyed the Planet)
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sorborus
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whilst this says nothing of Alderaan's shields, there is possible proof of shielding in Attack of the Clones, on Coruscant

See my preliminary page
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Captain Newland
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry, but it makes no sense for that glow to be a shield. First, how did Dooku get through if it was a shield? Second, look at all the traffic going in and out of Courscant. It makes no sense for a shield to be up at a time like that when all it could do was block traffic.

Now, as to the glow issue of the Alderaan shield, that is explained by the CR theory for the DS superlaser (a debate exists on this subject here: http://strek-v-swars.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=133), and the CR theory is also required, and therefor doesn't violate Occam's Razor (for anyone who might want to bring that up). Now, I'm not interested in getting into a debate about the DET/CR subject, but others here are (as that thread shows).
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sorborus
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Newland wrote:
I'm sorry, but it makes no sense for that glow to be a shield. First, how did Dooku get through if it was a shield? Second, look at all the traffic going in and out of Courscant. It makes no sense for a shield to be up at a time like that when all it could do was block traffic.


Most of the traffic on Coruscant is local. This wouldn't be impeded by the shield, as long as it stays under the required altitude. Shields can be opened to allow authorised craft in and out.

I'd like to hear your ideas of what it might be, since it can't be natural.
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dakarne
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Most of the traffic on Coruscant is local. This wouldn't be impeded by the shield, as long as it stays under the required altitude. Shields can be opened to allow authorised craft in and out.

I'd like to hear your ideas of what it might be, since it can't be natural.


Maybe it's a shield designed to protect against direct assaults (such as weapons-fire)

It's also the plausible reason why Coruscant was left unscathed by the overhead battle in ROTS
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Captain Newland
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorborus wrote:
Captain Newland wrote:
I'm sorry, but it makes no sense for that glow to be a shield. First, how did Dooku get through if it was a shield? Second, look at all the traffic going in and out of Courscant. It makes no sense for a shield to be up at a time like that when all it could do was block traffic.


Most of the traffic on Coruscant is local. This wouldn't be impeded by the shield, as long as it stays under the required altitude. Shields can be opened to allow authorised craft in and out.

I'd like to hear your ideas of what it might be, since it can't be natural.

Traffic has to get in and out as well (trade, passenger ships, etc). Also, how did Dooku's ship get through if a shield were up? Now, I don't know what it could have been besides some kind of electrical disturbance in the atmosphere.

Oh, one more point. We know that large shields like that incinerate starships (ROTJ novelization), and if that were true, the atmosphere would be vaped.
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