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Alderaan shield
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Captain Newland
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 6:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Alderaan shield Reply with quote

Vympel wrote:
Captain Newland wrote:

The clouds are much brighter than the rest of the atmosphere, which doesn't prove that there is aa shield. It merely proves that they were being vaporized.


Don't be ridiculous. If that were the case, we'd see them getting vaporized- they don't. They retain their shape throughout.

They retained their shape for 2 frames. Wow.

Quote:
Quote:

Precisely.


Precisely what?

I don't know. You didn't quote what you said as well, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

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Quote:

It does?


Absolutely. You don't for a second believe that atmosphere extends that far out, do you?

That glow looks to be radiated away from the planet.
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BigHairyMountainMan
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Incidentally... upon being superheated, the atmosphere would expand dramatically. So would anything on the surface being vaporized. I would also note that Alderaan is not "full" in this sequence; the glow, however, does (barely) extend past the extrapolated disc of Alderaan in the last pre-red-glowing-debris shot, albeit by only a couple pixels:
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Incidentally... upon being superheated, the atmosphere would expand dramatically. So would anything on the surface being vaporized. I would also note that Alderaan is not "full" in this sequence; the glow, however, does (barely) extend past the extrapolated disc of Alderaan in the last pre-red-glowing-debris shot, albeit by only a couple pixels:


yes, but if it WAS superheated the surface would have been reddish orange lava. Anybody down there would have been cooked. So it isn't atmospheric glow by any sense of the imagination.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dakarne wrote:
yes, but if it WAS superheated the surface would have been reddish orange lava. Anybody down there would have been cooked. So it isn't atmospheric glow by any sense of the imagination.
You're mixing your analogies. Superheat something sufficiently, and it appears bluish white; given the fairly low specific heat of the atmosphere relative to the superlaser's energy, I'd expect any atmospheric heating to involve bluish-white incandescence.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You're mixing your analogies. Superheat something sufficiently, and it appears bluish white; given the fairly low specific heat of the atmosphere relative to the superlaser's energy, I'd expect any atmospheric heating to involve bluish-white incandescence.


yes but the ground and water below appeared fine, try again.
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DSG2k
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Alderaan shield Reply with quote

Vympel wrote:
We don't see SW shields in a vacuum. They're invisible. And it's quite obvious that the shield is extra-atmospheric in nature, the glow on the right-hand side extends well beyond any possible atmosphere of the planet.


Thanks, Vymp. I'd been looking for a direct quote to use.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWalderaan.html
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, DSG2k. The yellow circles you drew around Alderaan on your site makes it even more clear exactly where the superlaser penetrates the shield and hits the surface (it's even possible to discern the beam/shield interaction in the picture labelled ANHDVD-Aldblow01sm-wcirc.jpg). Important to remember is the angle that we're seeing Alderaan from, we don't see it straight on, but of course we do see where the beam strikes the planet... I'm starting to believe that I've to do some yellow circles of my own...

There are some questions you must answer: if Alderaan wasn't shielded, would it have been the "effective demonstration" Tarkin wanted? From TESB we know that a small generator was enough to project a shield that only covered "an area" of Hoth VI that was impervious to bombardment from an entire fleet consisting of at least six ISDs and the Executor. Now, if such a small generator set up by a small group of people is capable of this feat, then logically a government would have the means to protect the entire planet. It's ridiculous to say something else. That the superlaser was able to easily penetrate the planetary shield adds to the effectiveness of the weapon.

One other important thing, again from TESB. It's so obvious, but I thought I would mention it anyway in a very concrete fashion. While the shield is up, the Rebels can't leave the planet and the Imperials can't land (at least not in the direct vicinity of the Alliance base). Alderaan is described as "peaceful" with "no weapons". How could such a society have been left in peace by the Empire? In neither the movie or the novelization any word is mentioned on the evacuation of Imperial personnel from Alderaan before the Death Star arrives at Alderaan, the answer is simple, there aren't any. On the other hand, the novelization mentions that Tatooine has a planetary governor. As I said, the answer is obvious. Hopefully, Revenge of the Sith will yield some more clues on the status of Alderaan.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Swede wrote:
Thanks, DSG2k. The yellow circles you drew around Alderaan on your site makes it even more clear exactly where the superlaser penetrates the shield and hits the surface (it's even possible to discern the beam/shield interaction in the picture labelled ANHDVD-Aldblow01sm-wcirc.jpg).


That's a ridiculous claim. But, don't let that stop you . . . do expound upon it further.

Quote:
Important to remember is the angle that we're seeing Alderaan from, we don't see it straight on,


What? You realize it's supposed to be a sphere, right?

Quote:
There are some questions you must answer:


I'll do what I please, thank you.

Quote:
if Alderaan wasn't shielded, would it have been the "effective demonstration" Tarkin wanted?


Yes, and I've explained why previously. See Objection #1 on the page I linked to.

Quote:
From TESB we know that a small generator was enough to project a shield that only covered "an area" of Hoth VI that was impervious to bombardment from an entire fleet consisting of at least six ISDs and the Executor. Now, if such a small generator set up by a small group of people is capable of this feat, then logically a government would have the means to protect the entire planet.


You're assuming that the ability to make a shield is the ability to make a planetary shield. That's not logical. The enormity of the construction for the DS2 shield at Endor seems to elude you, and that was just for a 160km station.

(By the way, have you heard any mention of a planetary shield at Coruscant in Ep3? To be sure, rumor has it that Matt Stover is injecting all sorts of EU tripe into the novel, but I haven't heard any mention of a shield.)

Then, you assume that a theater shield that can withstand six ships is the same as a planetary shield that can do the same, or more at six ships per however-many-sq.-km-of-coverage. That, too, is illogical.

Quote:
It's ridiculous to say something else.


It's ridiculous to assume what you seek to prove.

Quote:
Alderaan is described as "peaceful" with "no weapons". How could such a society have been left in peace by the Empire?


Those Alderaanian gunships probably helped, not to mention any planetary use of all those munitions they supplied the Rebels with. Again, I refer you to Objection #1.

Quote:
In neither the movie or the novelization any word is mentioned on the evacuation of Imperial personnel from Alderaan before the Death Star arrives at Alderaan, the answer is simple, there aren't any.


That's a fascinating argument . . . I don't think I'd ever heard of the Empire giving a rosy rat's behind about its personnel, given what they do to the citizens.

What does this have to do with anything, by the way? Unless the Death Star was not, in fact, built during "long years of secretive construction", I don't see how the presence or absence of an Imperial governor would really matter.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="DSG2k"]
The Swede wrote:
Thanks, DSG2k. The yellow circles you drew around Alderaan on your site makes it even more clear exactly where the superlaser penetrates the shield and hits the surface (it's even possible to discern the beam/shield interaction in the picture labelled ANHDVD-Aldblow01sm-wcirc.jpg).


DSG2k wrote:
That's a ridiculous claim. But, don't let that stop you . . . do expound upon it further.

I will do so, when I have the time.

Quote:
Important to remember is the angle that we're seeing Alderaan from, we don't see it straight on,


DSG2k wrote:
What? You realize it's supposed to be a sphere, right?

Yes, but what I meant was that we don't see the beam hitting from straight on.

Quote:
There are some questions you must answer:


DSG2k wrote:
I'll do what I please, thank you.

Perhaps I should have added "in order for you to have a case". It's obvious that you don't.

Quote:
if Alderaan wasn't shielded, would it have been the "effective demonstration" Tarkin wanted?


DSG2k wrote:
Yes, and I've explained why previously. See Objection #1 on the page I linked to.

No, you haven't explained why. That rant has nothing to do with this argument.

Quote:
From TESB we know that a small generator was enough to project a shield that only covered "an area" of Hoth VI that was impervious to bombardment from an entire fleet consisting of at least six ISDs and the Executor. Now, if such a small generator set up by a small group of people is capable of this feat, then logically a government would have the means to protect the entire planet.


DSG2k wrote:
You're assuming that the ability to make a shield is the ability to make a planetary shield. That's not logical. The enormity of the construction for the DS2 shield at Endor seems to elude you, and that was just for a 160km station.

It is logical. As I mentioned, if such a small generator was able to perform such a task, then what might a bigger generator be capable of doing? Or, if such a big generator isn't available, then why not create overlapping shields with generators similar of the one seen at Hoth? What exactly do you mean by "The enormity of the construction for the DS2 shield..."?

DSG2k wrote:
(By the way, have you heard any mention of a planetary shield at Coruscant in Ep3? To be sure, rumor has it that Matt Stover is injecting all sorts of EU tripe into the novel, but I haven't heard any mention of a shield.)

No, I'm sorry. I haven't read the novelization and I've stayed clear from the leaked excerpts. And, I don't think ROTS will go into such detail regarding Coruscant.

[quote="DSG2k"]Then, you assume that a theater shield that can withstand six ships is the same as a planetary shield that can do the same, or more at six ships per however-many-sq.-km-of-coverage. That, too, is illogical.[/qoute]
No, it is not.

Quote:
It's ridiculous to say something else.


DSG2k wrote:
It's ridiculous to assume what you seek to prove.

Oh, spare me.

Quote:
Alderaan is described as "peaceful" with "no weapons". How could such a society have been left in peace by the Empire?


DSG2k wrote:
Those Alderaanian gunships probably helped, not to mention any planetary use of all those munitions they supplied the Rebels with. Again, I refer you to Objection #1.

What has that objection to do with the question of planetary shielding? I don't recall on top of my head that Alderaan supplied munitions, but that the government funded the Alliance. Once again your non-answer consists of a red herring.

Quote:
In neither the movie or the novelization any word is mentioned on the evacuation of Imperial personnel from Alderaan before the Death Star arrives at Alderaan, the answer is simple, there aren't any.


DSG2k wrote:
That's a fascinating argument . . . I don't think I'd ever heard of the Empire giving a rosy rat's behind about its personnel, given what they do to the citizens.

What does this have to do with anything, by the way? Unless the Death Star was not, in fact, built during "long years of secretive construction", I don't see how the presence or absence of an Imperial governor would really matter.

It would be an anomaly. I will expand on this later when I have the time for it.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mange, I can't be bothered if you cannot or will not understand what I wrote. So far, you haven't said anything not already handled by the SE-era objection responses. Please read them carefully.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That's a fascinating argument . . . I don't think I'd ever heard of the Empire giving a rosy rat's behind about its personnel, given what they do to the citizens.

What does this have to do with anything, by the way? Unless the Death Star was not, in fact, built during "long years of secretive construction", I don't see how the presence or absence of an Imperial governor would really matter.


good point.

Quote:
Those Alderaanian gunships probably helped, not to mention any planetary use of all those munitions they supplied the Rebels with. Again, I refer you to Objection #1.


Leia did sound desperate, plus she IS a polititian so she was probably lying, and what defences did the Death Star Face I wonder, not a "Naked man with a sharp stick" by any sense of the imagination. The only thing that could have resisted the deathstar is a Shield.

Quote:
You're assuming that the ability to make a shield is the ability to make a planetary shield. That's not logical. The enormity of the construction for the DS2 shield at Endor seems to elude you, and that was just for a 160km station.


the Death Star II's shield was developed in roughly 6 months, same as the Death Star II itself. and it was 900 km, the 160 km figure is sheer speculation.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dakarne wrote:
the Death Star II's shield was developed in roughly 6 months, same as the Death Star II itself. and it was 900 km, the 160 km figure is sheer speculation.
Actually, 160 km is supported by the visuals as well as being the "official" length. It is 900 km which is unfounded - or, more accurately, poorly founded - speculation.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, 900km is the official size ever since the OT:ITW, which also makes explicit reference to a nested heirarchy tench network, eliminating trench scaling. Furthermore, that 160km is the canon length is predicated on dismissing an entire class of visuals as "distortion" based on the no-evidence speculation that shots occuring after a hyperspace jump are "distorted"- never mind that there is no evidence for this, and never mind that these shots are not immediately after a hyperspace exit in any event. At best, one argues inconsistent scaling and merely picks which he prefers. Since 900km is the accepted size officially, this is as good as any.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vympel wrote:
Actually, 900km is the official size ever since the OT:ITW, which also makes explicit reference to a nested heirarchy tench network, eliminating trench scaling. Furthermore, that 160km is the canon length is predicated on dismissing an entire class of visuals as "distortion" based on the no-evidence speculation that shots occuring after a hyperspace jump are "distorted"- never mind that there is no evidence for this, and never mind that these shots are not immediately after a hyperspace exit in any event. At best, one argues inconsistent scaling and merely picks which he prefers. Since 900km is the accepted size officially, this is as good as any.
Incorrect. See the thread in question. It is the 900 km size that is based on dismissing an entire class of shots as "distorted." Taking into account the entire set of visual evidence from the movies sharply eliminates this possibility of distortion, contradicting the 900km figure as firmly incorrect. A DS2 size of 160 km does not assume any distortion caused by hyperspace jumps.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BigHairyMountainMan wrote:
Incorrect. See the thread in question. It is the 900 km size that is based on dismissing an entire class of shots as "distorted." Taking into account the entire set of visual evidence from the movies sharply eliminates this possibility of distortion, contradicting the 900km figure as firmly incorrect.


I don't see how it can possibly be "firmly incorrect" in light of the evidence and your own shoulder-shrugging about which is which- with a clearly inadequate explanation for the shots of the Death Star set against the entirety of Endor. Furthemore, we know from backstage information that was what they intened, which does count for something, and we see that intent represented on screen more than once.

Quote:
A DS2 size of 160 km does not assume any distortion caused by hyperspace jumps.


Sarli, whom you linked to, does, actually.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:22 am    Post subject: Glow and DS1 Reply with quote

The white glow appears, because once Superlaser hits, it inwokes the Superlaser Effect(SF, provided by Anderson), which make the matter first glow and then be converted into energy(per ANH novel)
When DS2 is destroyed, we can see the same glow INSIDE it, while the station is unshielded.

Why was DS1 impressive?

Laughing

First, the range. Remember, when X-wings approach it, turbolasers only start fire when they are nearly point-blank. So before DS1 (and after its destruction) Imperial ships had to go very low, 100-1000 km above the surface, and battle ion cannons, planet's turbolasers, usw. Besides, "The entire fleet couldn't destroy the whole planet" - Han Solo, ANH. Before, the Empire could destroy surface of the planets, but not much more "Theoretically, no weapon could penetrate the exceptionally dense stone of the ancient temple" - ANH Novel. Note: the Temple is unshielded, yet weapons from, say, ISD couldn't penetrate.
Laughing
And third, the point is there was no defense, and nothing could be done about it. See, if the first frames of Alderaan destruction show a shield, then it was able to block a considerable persent of DS1 energy (Red glow first appeared when the beam was about to end). This means, shields ten times more powerful would save Alderaan, and since Alderaans defences were considered "as strong"(but NOT MUCH STRONGER) that of other planets, Those would be able to protect themselves after small time, so WHY SUCH FEAR? The answer is, DS1 did what Empire wasn't able to do before - Destroy planets completely (as opposed to not being able to penetrate 1 km of granite), and this from the distance which made counter-measures nearly impossible. Alderaaner probably didn't realised anything before the planet's destruction began.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The white glow appears, because once Superlaser hits, it inwokes the Superlaser Effect(SF, provided by Anderson), which make the matter first glow and then be converted into energy(per ANH novel)
When DS2 is destroyed, we can see the same glow INSIDE it, while the station is unshielded.


Anderson, as in Darkstar.

If so, it's not a Superlaser Affect which turns Alderaan into a bomb, It's a concentrated beam of energy which strikes the planet, punching through a shield and then blasting apart the planet with sheer Direct Energy Transfer.

Quote:
First, the range. Remember, when X-wings approach it, turbolasers only start fire when they are nearly point-blank. So before DS1 (and after its destruction) Imperial ships had to go very low, 100-1000 km above the surface, and battle ion cannons, planet's turbolasers, usw. Besides, "The entire fleet couldn't destroy the whole planet" - Han Solo, ANH. Before, the Empire could destroy surface of the planets, but not much more "Theoretically, no weapon could penetrate the exceptionally dense stone of the ancient temple" - ANH Novel. Note: the Temple is unshielded, yet weapons from, say, ISD couldn't penetrate.


The Temples were built by the SITH for christ sake, they survived a force power made firestorm which razed the whole planet, the Temples weren't even scratched.

Quote:
And third, the point is there was no defense, and nothing could be done about it. See, if the first frames of Alderaan destruction show a shield, then it was able to block a considerable persent of DS1 energy (Red glow first appeared when the beam was about to end). This means, shields ten times more powerful would save Alderaan, and since Alderaans defences were considered "as strong"(but NOT MUCH STRONGER) that of other planets, Those would be able to protect themselves after small time, so WHY SUCH FEAR? The answer is, DS1 did what Empire wasn't able to do before - Destroy planets completely (as opposed to not being able to penetrate 1 km of granite), and this from the distance which made counter-measures nearly impossible. Alderaaner probably didn't realised anything before the planet's destruction began.


If the planet's shielding was as strong as any planet in the Empire why does it need to be much stronger, if it's a standard planetary shield but there was enough energy to blow the planet into nothing but small rocks, then there is going to be much fear of the Empire's new battlestation... it can annihilate a planet in a single shot, whether shielded or not, and if only a fraction of the energy was to make it through the shield there would be only half a planet left
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Glow and DS1 Reply with quote

SailorSaturumon13 wrote:
The white glow appears, because once Superlaser hits, it inwokes the Superlaser Effect(SF, provided by Anderson), which make the matter first glow and then be converted into energy(per ANH novel)
When DS2 is destroyed, we can see the same glow INSIDE it, while the station is unshielded.


Blah blah blah same old crap we've heard before.

Quote:
First, the range. Remember, when X-wings approach it, turbolasers only start fire when they are nearly point-blank.


There's a reason for that:

Quote:
Within the station, alarm sirens began a mournful, clangorous wail as slow-to-react personnel realized that the impregnable fortress was actually under organized atack. Admiral Motti and his tacticians had expected the Rebels' resistance to be centered around a massive defence of the moon itself. They were completely unprepared for an offensive response consisting of dozens of tiny snub ships.

Imperial efficiency was in the process of compensating for this strategic oversight. Soldiers scrambled to man enormous defensive-weapons emplacements. Servodrivers thrummed as powerful motors aligned the huge devices for firing.


Etc. ANH novelization.

Quote:
And third, the point is there was no defense, and nothing could be done about it. See, if the first frames of Alderaan destruction show a shield, then it was able to block a considerable persent of DS1 energy (Red glow first appeared when the beam was about to end). This means, shields ten times more powerful would save Alderaan, and since Alderaans defences were considered "as strong"(but NOT MUCH STRONGER) that of other planets, Those would be able to protect themselves after small time, so WHY SUCH FEAR? The answer is, DS1 did what Empire wasn't able to do before - Destroy planets completely (as opposed to not being able to penetrate 1 km of granite), and this from the distance which made counter-measures nearly impossible. Alderaaner probably didn't realised anything before the planet's destruction began.


A complete load of steaming crap.

1. You pulled the "a shield 10x more powerful would save Alderaan" claim directly from your rectum.

2. Noone ever claimed that the Empire could destroy a planet completely in the manner in the Death Star did. It's simply not practical- the Death Star provided greater firepower than half the fleet in one single platform.
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