The Battle of Britain

Re:  "Overview"

This is definitely one of their more entertaining efforts, a veritable fountain of creationist scattergun tactics employed against a page specifically titled as "A Brief Comparison of Federation and Empire" and marked as "[A work in progress . . .]".   I was most amused by attacks wherein they insist that I'd failed to flesh out some particular point.   How dare an overview summarizing the main points not be a complete rendition of the work!   

A warning . . . beating back their various random claims was not something that could be done with simple one-liners.  This page is enormous . . . it would still be 135kb in straight-text format, which doesn't include HTML coding or graphics.  If you're on dial-up, you'll need to give it a couple of minutes. (I may break it up into chunks later, with links as appropriate.)

This page, presented as a table, is one of the most difficult ones to critique 

And, due to the scattergun tactics employed, I've broken out of the table in order to respond properly.  The table will still exist, with links to appropriate sections.

[from a formatting standpoint; it doesn't seem any less dishonest and/or unreasonable than his other pages- Ed]. 

Project much, Mike?

Anyway, here's the quick-reference to the reply, as mentioned above

Planets - UFP

Mr. Anderson begins by stating that the only planetary count we have is from The Original Series (TOS), and that that count is one thousand. He then correctly points out that it is unclear whether this is referring to Earth colonies or to the entire UFP. The other count he presents is from The Next Generation (TNG), in which Picard states that the UFP is made up of approximately 150 member worlds. ... He then concludes by stating that the Federation has an estimated 5000 worlds, twice as large as his highest presented estimate!

Ossus's penchant for stupid misrepresentation comes to the surface, here.  He would have people believe that I state and argue for 5,000 Federation worlds, declaring it as the truth for all time and demanding that it be taught to our children.  In reality, after the sequence partially described by Ossus above, I give the common wrap-up in gold text: 

"Final Tally: ~ 1,000 total systems, minimum. ~ 5,000, estimated.
Member Tally: 150"

As you can see, it is but an estimate.  Wong carries the moronic attack further, of course:

[Editor's note: it's fascinating how he can take Kirk's statement that "we're on a thousand planets and spreading out" to mean that they have five thousand planets; only RSA can do such things and keep a straight face]

What they seem to have decided to forget is that the discussion of the thousand worlds refers to a time over 100 years before Star Trek: First Contact, and over 100 years after Enterprise.  In the TNG era, we know of many colonies planted within that span, so colonization certainly didn't stop.  In the latter, there is certainly no indication of any future Federation species having dozens of planets in their personal grip, and Earth certainly doesn't.  This implies a TOS era (which should involve less than 150 member worlds) which has made significant gains in planet count over the past century.  Further, by volume alone, the TNG Federation should contain about 15,000 "Earth-type" planets, as per McCoy in "Balance of Terror" (more in the update here).   It is no great leap to grant that a third of these might've been colonized (not to mention those which are not Earth-like and could be colonized by other species).  Also, if indeed Kirk only meant Earth colonies, then 5,000 would be highly conservative.   

As usual, the attack by Ossus and Wong was based on their own ignorance, and their decision that trying to make an attack that looked good (even if it was terrible) was preferable to going through the trouble to simply ask.

Planets - Empire

Again, we have interesting suppositions made by Mr. Anderson. In the A New Hope (ANH) novelization, Tarkin states that there are one million systems in the Empire. Mr. Anderson states that:

"one may presume these are all inhabited, though this is not certain."

Anderson goes on, later in the table, to present numerous estimates that rely on Tarkin's statement as referring to all planets, inhabited and uninhabited.

I don't think Ossus knew what he was aiming for this time.    It sounds like he's trying to argue against my assumption that the million systems are all inhabited.

Surely he doesn't prefer the notion that they aren't . . . 

  [Cleverly devious; he says that it's "uncertain", but then he quietly picks one option and uses it henceforth, as if it's completely certain]

How is it devious (or quiet) to state what is presumably true, and treat it as such?

Anderson simply lies to misrepresent canon when he explains how he arrived at his figure based on Attack of the Clones (AotC):

Ah, yes, let's look at how I lie.  Since I am The Great Satan™, it should be easy enough to show, right?:

"In any case, at least several thousand solar systems are populated, since that is the number Dooku had under his thumb in Attack of the Clones, with another ten thousand ready to join him. 

Funny . . . that's true.  Maybe the big lie is somewhere else?

It is not known what percentage of the Republic these systems represented, but Palpatine referred to the idea as the Republic being "split in two". This could refer to a numerical division of half-and-half, or may only represent a more general concept such as economics or population. If it was a rough halving of the Republic, we could guess that the total number of full-membership Republic worlds was on the order of fifty thousand to one hundred thousand."

Funny . . . that's all true, too.  

One important note here is that Rabid Warsies such as Wong and Ossus are severely bothered by the meaning of "split in two".   The phrase means something akin to a rough halving, but they insist that we take the phrase word-by-word and simply take it to mean that there will be two parts where previously there was just one.  

That reasoning is invalid, based on a fundamental ignorance of the way English works.   A phrase has meaning as a unit . . . not as individual words.  "United States of America" is a phrase which, as a unit, has a special meaning.  "Parallel universe" is a phrase which, as a unit, has a special meaning.  "Thought experiment" is a phrase which, as a unit, has a special meaning. "All but" is a phrase which, as a unit, has a special meaning (and note how that phrase means the exact opposite of the words which make it up . . . "Hitler is all but dead" means he's dead, but taken literally word-for-word, it should mean he's alive).

"Split in two" is a similar phrase, meaning that something is split, roughly, in half.  It need not be exact, but it should be reasonably close.  You don't split something in two by knocking a teeny-weeny splinter off of something.  Let's say, for example, that you're a prisoner.  Your jailer points at a rock, about one cubic meter in size, and tells you to go split that rock in two, or else you'll be punished severely (say, by solitary confinement, or by having a new big smelly hairy neanderthal cellmate who likes to be called "Sweetie").  Are you going to go give everything you've got to try to crack it in half, or are you going to go knock off a 1cm³ chip and walk confidently back to the jailer with it?  (If you answered the latter, I can almost imagine "Sweetie" warming up his privates in anticipation.)  

Of course, given Wong's mangled use of "cut in half" in the Tactics section to refer to a Klingon cruiser that lost its forward pod and a wing, at least the Warsies are consistently stupid.   

The canonical novel clearly refutes his reasoning by demonstrating the full context of the conversation:

When an event is shown in two different ways on film and in the lesser canon, only the filmed version is valid.  Or are we to believe that Yoda is a chameleon capable of not only being green, but also blue as per the TESB novel?  

From this, it is clear that Anderson is resorting to lies to misrepresent canon.

Lies?  Misrepresentation?  Praytell, who just tried to use lesser canon to rewrite higher canon?

[Editor's note: when Kirk says they have a "thousand planets" RSA hears "inhabited planets", but when Tarkin says they have a "million systems", RSA hears "maybe inhabited, maybe not". Do I even need to explain what's wrong with his conduct?]

When Wong hears "we're on a thousand planets" and "the million systems of the Empire", he automatically thinks they should mean the same thing . . . as if Tarkin's statement of possession automatically implies the same thing as Kirk's statement of habitation.  Stupid Mike.  "Do I even need to explain what's wrong with his conduct?"

Territory Size - UFP

Anderson makes reference to the map of the Federation used in Keiko's classroom and in "Conspiracy" [TNG].

Yep.  I explicitly use it as a general reference for the shape of the Federation.  

 He also states that the UFP spans 8000 light years, based on a statement made in "Star Trek: First Contact" (ST:FC), and assumes that 8000 LY represents the maximum width, which he applies to the map to determine the total volume of the UFP.

There's just one problem with his approach: the distances on the map most certainly do not equate to being 8000 light years.

No crap!   They don't equate to much of anything, if you look at the star positions.  Here's the main portion of the map (which, in "Conspiracy"[TNG], poorly followed the curvature of the galaxy:

However, the map works quite well as a general shape descriptor for the Federation . . . and that is all I used it for.  

 The distance from Earth to Alpha Centauri is ... 4.4 light years from the Sol system, which is conveniently also labeled for us on the map.

Ossus takes this and runs with it, deciding on a Federation of 30,000 ly³, and that perhaps Picard's "spread across 8,000 light-years" is somehow a sentence entailing volume.  He fails, naturally, to note that other real stars are easily visible on the map.  Most notable among these is Deneb, visible in the outermost box between numbers 345 and 346.  Deneb's distance is over 3,200 light-years, which would fit fairly well with the 8,000 light-year wide Federation.   Others don't work at all.

However, such issues (and others, such as Trill being outside the Federation) are why I discount the map for more than a general idea of the shape of the Federation.  Further, newer issues (such as the relative closeness of the Klingon homeworld and the Romulan Star Empire as given to us by Enterprise and, in the case of the Romulans, the TNG films) present additional difficulties . . . the map is not perfect, and I do not use it as such.  

(A similar horrible-ness of labeling that is too small to be seen occurs on the map in "Yesterday's Enterprise"[TNG] which contains repeats of almost every star.  And, of course, there's the well known gag labelling of doors and whatnot. A bit of reason is all that is required to decide what to pay attention to . . . which is, of course, how Ossus failed.)

Alternatively, he [Picard] could be referring to the distance between the different "arms" of a perforated UFP. This would make sense, given that we know from Star Trek: Insurrection that the UFP has not even charted all of its worlds fully, and does not control each and all of the planets within its territory—even the habitable ones.

This is hysterical.  Ossus goes from a UFP that hasn't explored its every world and which, simultaneously, does not control worlds it has explored and declared protected by the Prime Directive (two facts which he believes somehow work together), to suggesting that the UFP is split into various arms.  I guess the early U.S., though stretching from coast to coast, wasn't really contiguous because not every nook and cranny had been explored . . . and is even now "perforated" by reservations.

Of course, I'm curious to know what Ossus means by "charted all of its worlds fully", and where he gets that.  Obviously, he's trying to imply that the Federation is a vast wilderness, probably because not every class M world has been visited.  

Meanwhile, figures in early TNG were between 11% and 19% of the galaxy having been charted.  Even just by area and not volume (thus ignoring the central bulge of the galaxy), an 8,000 light year wide circle only constitutes a little over 6% of the galaxy.  Ossus, then, in order to maintain a Federation ignorant of itself, would have us believe that almost all of its exploring and charting was done outside its own borders.   How odd . . . and how Ossus. 

Territory Size - Empire

Anderson goes on to totally disregard his earlier assumption that the million star systems Tarkin was referring to may be presumed to be inhabited,

No, I don't.  Ossus, being retarded, takes the phrase "if we were to assume" as "I assume, now and for all time, and if you don't agree screw you."   I am demonstrating one possibility . . . moments later, I demonstrate others.

This is a common error.

Ossus misreading something and attacking based on his own error?  Yes, it is common.

However, Qui-Gon does not even suggest in The Phantom Menace (TPM) that not all of the stars have been visited. He was having a conversation with Anakin Skywalker, which proceeded as follows.

ANAKIN: There are so many. Do they all have a system of planets?
QUI-GON: Most of them.
ANAKIN: Has anyone ever been to them all?
QUI-GON: Not likely.

Nowhere in that exchange does Qui-Gon even hint at there being unexplored worlds within the Galaxy.

What, do any other visible galaxies Anakin might've been looking at have a system of planets?  Silly me, I thought planets commonly revolved around stars.

 In fact, he seems to hint that that is not the case! By saying "Not likely," instead of "Impossible," or "No," Qui-Gon infers that all of the stars have been visited.

(Sigh) . . . where does he come up with this stuff?  Answering the child with a wry grin and a "Mm, not likely" does not imply that Qui-Gon meant the exact inverse of what he said.

Let's try this thought experiment.  

1.  "Has anyone ever been to all the craters on the moon?".   "(wry grin) Mm, not likely."

2.  "Has anyone ever been to all the islands on Earth?".   "(wry grin) Mm, not likely."

Praytell, which one makes more sense?  Why should it be amusing to ask if all the islands of Earth have been visited?  After all, we've been all over the stupid place.

 In addition, Anderson's analysis is clearly incorrect of the Outer Rim. The Outer Rim likely does not refer to the Outer Rim of the Galaxy, but the Outer Rim of the Republic.

Uh . . . wait.  That's what I said.  So tell me again how I'm incorrect?

 This is clear from Obi-Wans conversation in AotC with Dexter Jettster. Moreover, the "Outer Rim" could be a term that refers to a planet above or below the Galactic plane, a possibility which Anderson ignores.

No, I don't ignore it . . . I chose not to include it because it's a dumb idea.   "The outer rim of the Republic" makes sense.  So does "the outer rim of the galaxy", insofar as the outermost edges of the plane.  However, to say that something above or below the plane near the center is "beyond the outer rim" is stupid . . . akin to saying that an aircraft in flight over Kansas is "off the coast" of the U.S., as opposed to being over Kansas.  

Of course, a galaxy is not a perfectly flat plane . . . he could be referring to the outer rim of the central spherical area of the core.  But, if that were their "outer rim of the galaxy", would that not imply a Galactic Republic confined to the core?  How does that help the Warsie position any?

KENOBI: Kamino ... is it part of the Republic?
DEXTER: No, no, it's beyond the Outer Rim. I'd say it's about twelve parsecs outside the Rishi Maze.

Clearly Dexter is referring to the Outer Rim of the Republic, and states that in part to answer Kenobi's question about whether or not Kamino was in the Republic.

Of course that's what he meant.   That is, after all, what I argued for, because it lays to rest all the Warsie claims that "outer rim" must mean the edge of the plane of the galaxy.

Anderson then justifies himself by saying that he does similar things with Star Trek. Let's examine his examples of when he has done similar things with Star Trek statements: "I apply similar reasoning to Pike's comment to the Talosians about being from ‘the other end of this galaxy'." Okay, Earth is located in a spiral arm of the Milky Way Galaxy. It is quite easy to imagine the Talosians being from almost anywhere in the Galaxy, but being referred to as the "other end." They could even be coming from the base of the arm of the Galaxy, but be described in such a manner quite easily.

And thus, Ossus agrees while disagreeing with me.  Silly Ossus.

Anderson's other example is the similarly ludicrous: "Picard's comments in "Conspiracy" that the Enterprise had been on the outer rim." Of course the Enterprise was on the Outer Rim of the Milky Way. It is based from Earth, and Earth is on the outer fringe of the Milky Way. Picard's statement tells us nothing.

Uh-huh.

Population - UFP

Anderson uses conjecture based on "Statistical Probabilities" [Deep Space Nine], to justify his assertion that the UFP could have as many as two trillion inhabitants as a rough minimum estimate, however this is not necessary. His reasoning totally disregards the five generations between the UFP's disastrous war and the revolt that culminates in the destruction of the Dominion!

Ossus brazenly displays his idiocy on this one, both by the nature of his attack and by believing that the Federation has between 1-1.5 trillion, as opposed to two trillion.  With the projected Federation death toll of .9 trillion, and the requirement that within five generations (about 100 years) the revolution would occur and the Federation would rise up and conquer the Dominion, there are certain logical limits to what the starting population could be.

First, it is reasonable to assume that the surviving Federation worlds (i.e. those not blown completely off the map) regain most of their former population in that century.  After all, a victorious Dominion with its boot on every Federation world for a century would not only have one hell of a foothold, but could also have performed some wondrous expansion in that time.   Also don't forget that the revolutionaries would be fighting an enemy that mass-produces its troops.  These factors make a successful revolution damn near impossible, not to mention the conquest of the entire Alpha and Gamma Quadrant under Dominion control.

Now take into account the likely condition of most Federation worlds that had survived, once the war was lost . . . disease, hunger, environmental poisoning and the failure of planetary climate control systems, the destruction of infrastructure, and the brutality of the occupation (remember, the Dominion destroyed an entire Cardassian city for a single resistance cell attack).  I find it most unlikely that there would be positive population growth during the first generation, and I doubt the second generation would be much better.  

But, let's assume the high-end of Ossus's belief, in that there were .6 trillion people left in the Federation.  Given human reproductive proclivities (a fair middle ground . . . Vulcans reproduce more slowly, other races might reproduce more quickly), let's argue that the last three generations involved positive population growth.  For simplicity, let's say that they only got back up to 1.2 trillion persons.   That's a population doubling time of 60 years, which would require a population growth rate of 1.17% per year.  

By comparison, the natural population growth rate (i.e. sex and children, as opposed to including immigration) varies substantially.  The U.S. has the highest of the western world, with .6%.   Most European countries are far lower, with Germany and several other nations actually having negative natural population growth (women bear 1.5 children, on average, versus a requirement for zero population growth of 2.1 children).  War-ravaged Afghanistan, thanks in part to U.S. and U.N. humanitarian aid efforts, managed to achieve a 3.5% population growth rate (20 years doubling time) circa 2000.   

One can hardly suppose that the Dominion would suddenly become a humanitarian aid organization, rebuilding the infrastructure of the Federation for the comfort of its surviving former citizens.  Indeed, they'd be more likely to institute China-esque birth-rate controls, labor camps, and so on.   (Of course, we have seen some individual Dominion planets pretty much left alone in the Gamma Quadrant so long as they do what the Dominion wants, but a conquered enemy union of worlds would hardly qualify for such laissez-faire treatment . . . especially given Weyoun's expressed concern over what would be required to pacify the Alpha Quadrant in "Sacrifice of Angels".)

Now, I suggest a rough minimum estimate of two trillion.  1.1 trillion people surviving, and with a return to even 1.6 trillion after sixty years of positive growth, requires a rate of no more than U.S. proportions, about .58% yearly. 

Of course, many factors play into population growth . . . biological, cultural, socio-economic, political, and so on.  But, to my mind, presumption of slow growth makes a helluva lot more sense than presuming that the Dominion would stand idly by and let the people screw like jackrabbits, becoming an uncontrollable population.

But hey, what's a reasoned calculation against Ossus's guesswork?

Population - Empire

Again, Anderson lies about the context in which "I will not allow this Republic ... to be split in two" was said in an effort to misrepresent the population of the Empire and lend credence to his claims of a tiny Empire. 

I don't even mention the "split in two" thing.   

His final estimate is somewhat reasonable, though extremely conservative. The fact of the matter remains, however, that the context in which the quote was said clearly rules out the possibility of the 10,000 systems being numerically important—in fact, it makes them nearly insignificant! Only if the losers from the upcoming (and presumably very close) vote break away will the Republic "be split in two."

I think "Crossover Maniac" put it best when he said this on Spacebattles:

"Actually, if you count the figure of 12,000,000 member worlds in the OR as canon and 20,000 worlds seceded from the OR, it's more like this:

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We have a line.

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HOLY HELL!!! THE EMPIRE'S SPLIT IN TWO.

It's sort of different when you put things in perspective."

"True, but I wouldn't use the expression, the OR was split in two. More like: HOLY HELL!!! They nitched a piece of the OR!!!"

There's a bit of overkill there, since the Empire only had a million worlds (and presumably the Republic, as well), but you get the idea.

Besides, "split in two" is much different from "split into equal halves". 

No kidding . . . it means a split into roughly-equal parts.  

Planetary Defense - UFP

In "The Last Outpost" [TNG], the Enterprise's crew is astonished that a forcefield is capable of being projected from the surface of a planet into orbit, where it would surround two ships and prevent them from moving. This seems to indicate that planetary shields in Star Trek are limited to a very low altitude, or that they are of such low power that starships can easily move through them.

What fantastic bullshit Ossus spews . . . "Portal", a force from the T'kon Imperial Outpost's surface, dragged the two ships closer to one another while both were at full alert, deleted the shields, rendered the weapons unpowered, drained power from all systems, nullified the Enterprise's attempt to leap to warp or even move at impulse, re-routed a fired phaser beam, et cetera, et cetera, and then returned everything to normal with the slightest thought.  And all this was done in such a manner that the Enterprise and Ferengi ships could not, themselves, read the source of the energy drain, but instead had to launch probes away from the entrapment site in order to see what was going on.

And yet, Ossus would have you believe that this is to be considered a standard shield, in spite of explicit evidence to the contrary.   "You must think me a fool to make your lies so transparent!"

This is consistent with "The Defector" [TNG], in which it is revealed that extending shields for five kilometers ahead of the Enterprise substantially weakens them.

Why is that surprising?  The Enterprise-D is on the order of 640 meters long . . . not 5000.  Why should we expect the design of the shields to be rigged for a five kilometer loss-free extension?

Thus, while planetary shields in Star Trek may be theoretically possible, the practical limitations of UFP technology preclude their use on most planets.

Oh, really?

1.  "Whom Gods Destroy"[TOS] . . . The asylum world Elba II was explicitly protected by a planetary shield.  The Enterprise could've blasted through above the asylum, but only at the risk of destroying all life on Elba II.  The forcefield was weakest on the far side of the planet, implying that it was generated within the asylum dome.  It was sufficiently weak on the far side of the planet that phasers were thought to be able to cut through, but with only a "margin of safety" for those within the asylum.  However, it held after multiple full-power blasts. 

(This is likely the same basic sort of forcefield in place over the Tantalus penal colony from the original version of "Whom Gods Destroy", which was called "Dagger of the Mind".  However, that world's shielding also prevented communications, and there was never any suggestion of trying to shoot through it . . . those two facts would suggest a more powerful forcefield.)

2.  "Year of Hell, Pt. II"[VOY] . . . Chakotay:  "If she's given the other ships temporal shielding, they've undoubtedly informed their homeworlds.  They'll be able to protect their planets against your weapon."  

A.  Temporal shielding is a modification of standard shielding, developed by Seven, which could protect Voyager against Krenim chroniton torpedoes and, fortuitously, Annorax's temporal weapon-ship.  The temporal weapon it carried was capable of deleting objects -- from molecules to comets to entire civilizations -- from the timeline.

B.  Chakotay here is speaking of the Nihydron and Mawasi, which were participating in Voyager's attack on the weapon-ship.  We do not know what he knew of them (i.e. he may have been speaking just from general experience).  However, from what we saw (and which he would presumably know, given the intimate familiarity Annorax's ship allowed regarding the spacetime continuum), everything suggests that their defensive capabilities were less technologically sophisticated than those of Voyager.

(Note well that Voyager, by this point (several months into the story), was in extremely, extremely poor shape . . . as Janeway put it, over half the ship had been destroyed, and we'd already seen her lose her outer hull.  Basically, the ship had been beaten like a ten-cent whore.)

The ships of the Mawasi looked like low-tech Klingon ships, and even when fresh were less resilient to the weapon-ship's conventional arsenal than was Voyager, further reinforcing the view that they were of lesser technological sophistication.  Two Nihydron vessels, meanwhile, quickly evaporated from the timeline when fired upon by the weapon-ship's temporal weapon whereas a battered Voyager had lasted for several, several seconds when she was hit by it, to the point that she was able to escape.  

In spite of this, they would still be able to protect their worlds with the shields. 

3.  The BS Wong Approach:   We've seen less-than-planetary shields, ergo planetary shields are no problem.  Just link 'em.

(Funny how the Warsies accept that view without question for Star Wars, but refuse to accept that view for Star Trek, even though Trek has actually demonstrated planetary shielding!  Meanwhile, they accuse me of double-standards!)

Planetary Defense - Empire

[Editor's note: naturally, after admitting that the Federation has no militarily useful planetary shields to speak of

In fact, I say no such thing.

It stands to reason that a planetary shield could easily be constructed by overlapping theater shields,

Actually, it doesn't.  First, let's take a theatre shield of the Hoth type, which was "impervious to any bombardment".  Given the slow walking speed of AT-ATs and the apparent quickness with which they reached the Rebel base, let's guesstimate that it covered 1024 km² (a 20 mile by 20 mile box).   Let's take a planet like Earth, but a bit smaller at just 6300 kilometers in radius.   The surface area is thus 498,759,249.7 km², meaning we'd need damn near half a million shield generators, with the necessary power generation capability to support them.   These would have to be evenly spread out across the surface of the globe, and over the oceans, too. 

Second, the "proof" that Imperial shield technology can be operated in such a manner is the tiny theatre shields employed by the Gungans in TPM, which used a shield technology never seen before or since.

Third, note the double-standard . . . Star Wars shields can do that, but Trek shields can't?  (Not like Trek shields would have to . . . they were already shown to be planet-covering, yet generated from a single point.)

but Anderson ignores this possibility because to admit to the possibility of having planetary shields would damage his Death Star firepower estimates.

Stupid Ossus.  Since planetary shields are not visible or even inferrable in the canon, Warsies must not only prove their existence but also their operational parameters (i.e. that they would be invisible even when actively repelling the superlaser).  They can do neither (as shown in more detail on the page on the topic), hence their claims of dishonesty against me. 

[Editor's note: the fact that they couldn't land on Endor without shield deactivation in ROTJ is also indicative of a planetary shield

Mike and I have been over this territory before . . . in the debate, he deliberately misrepresented the novel on this point.  The fact is that they required the shield to be dropped in order to land within its boundaries, which were fairly extensive on the surface:

Ship Count - UFP

His starship estimates are reasonable, assuming that the UFP fleet count refers only to true starships and does not include shuttlecraft, runabouts, etc.

Total UFP fleet count would logically include runabouts and scoutships such as Data's from Insurrection, since those have an NCC designation.  Federation fighters and shuttlecraft do not have such a designation.  However, since vessels of the runabout and scoutship types do not appear in any of the warfleets mentioned on either side, they are effectively excluded from the ship count given, which would refer solely to large combat starships.

[We should keep in mind, however, that there is no particular reason to make that assumption; the word "ship" is not necessarily restricted to capital warships; a modern fighter pilot will often refer to his plane as "my ship"]

That is all the Warsie assumption is based on???  I've been trying to find out time and again where the hell the Warsies were coming up with the notion that Starfleet included fighters in its ship count.   It's a notion they've repeated time and again, but when you ask for proof . . .  silence.    

And now, bared for all, is the basis of that notion . . . the fact that sometimes, a fighter pilot refers to his fighter as a ship!  And Wong wonders why I laugh at him?  First off, modern pilot lingo is hardly a basis for such a claim.  Second, do the air forces (or especially navies) of the world call fighters ships?   Hell no.  So why should we assume that Starfleet does, even though we only hear them refer to such vessels as fighters?   

Stupid Mike. 

Ship Count - Empire

"[A]n infrastructure that can build a Death Star should be able to field a hefty fleet. (Just counting volume, a 120 kilometer Death Star is the equivalent of over 1.7 million starships of one cubic kilometer.) On the other hand, they only had 27 starships at the Empire's most important tactical engagement (RoTJ), so there's a great deal of uncertainty in play."

The presence of the Death Star was, quite obviously, vastly more important to the Empire than the presence of the rest of their entire fleet at Endor.

Quite true.  But, given the retreat order which Ackbar was going to give before Calrissian suggested a point-blank attack on the fleet (which, as observed, resulted in severe Imperial losses), more ships would have been severely helpful, and could've ensured that the Rebel starships could not have escaped.  If we believe common Warsie claims of Imperial fleet strength, then overwhelming force could've been brought to bear . . . a spherical wall of starships precluding any attempt at escape, for instance.  Instead, we see a small formation of a mere 27 starships.

"The Imperial Starfleet has not been fleshed out in the slightest. The fleet is known to include Imperators and a smaller number of Executors, and presumably older ship classes such as the Acclamators. The latter of these is the smallest, at better than 700 meters."

And the Communication Ship mentioned in the canon novelization,

Which I mention elsewhere on the page, thank you very much.

 and Saxton's Anonymous Star Destroyer #5, both of which appear in canon.

Funny, I always assumed that was supposed to be the Executor's forward hull.  

Even if we accept Saxton's idea that it is an inverted starship (which it is . . . it's the bottom close-up Star Destroyer model, inverted on camera and with the launch bays covered over), then why must we assume that there are two separate types (i.e. the comm ship and the canon-anonymous), as opposed to the one in the novel and the one in the canon being one and the same?   This makes much more sense, if indeed it isn't the Executor.  Further, since we never saw a starship in the wide shots significantly different than a common Star Destroyer (but for the Executor), and given the simple alterations to known Imperator design that the canon-anonymous exhibits, this would make the communication ship a specialized Imperator.  

[Editor's note: perhaps Mon Mothma's dialogue about how the Imperial starfleet is spread all over the galaxy looking for them escaped RSA's attention]

That's an awfully flimsy excuse for the tiny fleet of 27.  If there really were millions of Imperial vessels, they could have quite easily let a couple of hundred or a couple of thousand seem to be off hunting, when instead they would participate in the trap.   Instead, we get 27.   Even the Federation, with a mere ~10,000 starships across a volume of space 8000 light-years across, managed to get 39 starships at its most important tactical engagement, and they did so in mere days.   But, with all the foresight of the Emperor at their disposal and knowledge of the Rebel fleet massing at Sullust, the Empire could only scrounge up 27?  Get real.

Reactor Tech - UFP

Fully and totally accurate.

[Editor's note: not surprising, since he only points out that they use fusion for impulse and M/AM for warp, and then stops]

Actually, I also point out that, as per "Symbiosis"[TNG], a few systems on a starship (parts of the internal comm systems being the most important mentioned) have an electronic component.  Finally, something an Imperial ion cannon might do damage to!   Of course, once the Imperial ship has used its ion cannons to blast a starship's comm system back to the Stone Age, it isn't like they'd have to revert to smoke signals . . . it would require the minor annoyance of tapping one's chest.   Heaven forbid!

Reactor Tech - Empire

This goes over some well-trod paths.

[Editor's note: RSA bases his entire argument on the "artificial sun" line in the ANH novelization]

"Space filled temporarily with trillions of microscopic metal fragments, propelled past the retreating ships by the liberated energy of a small artificial sun." (italics mine)

The ANH Novel reference which DarkStar accredits such power is actually inconclusive to say the least. It is clearly referring to the amount of energy released, as opposed to the manner in which it is produced.

(chuckle) . . . and I've pointed out before that even if we irrationally choose to ignore the fusion angle and all the other facts which demonstrate the Superlaser Effect , then the Death Star is still limited to sun's-fusion-scale energy levels even during a runaway chain reaction, and thus the Superlaser Effect is proven.  You can't get 1e38J from a 1e26W reactor in a reasonable timeframe.

Thanks Ossus.

It is also an enormously vague quote, with many possible interpretations.

It is also a canon quote, which means it cannot be rewritten at the whim of Ossus or the EU.  

Interestingly enough, there are some kinds of stars that do not rely on nuclear fusion to generate power- something that Anderson's interpretation of the quote is precluded by.

Stars, yes . . . neutron stars, et cetera.   But not suns.

 Moreover, the repeated problems with safety in UFP plasma conduits are a likely explanation for why Imperial "power distribution appears to be simple electricity."

Funny, we've only heard of a couple of instances that I know of from the Trek canon where plasma conduits explode, and we saw a plasma fire in "Disaster"[TNG].  Meanwhile, we see as many instances in the canon (and far less canon, mind you) where Star Wars wires start getting tangled and causing damage.  Note C-3PO in the opening chapters of ANH, tangled in wires in ESB, and the fire which R2 puts out in the same film.

[Editor's note: as pointed out in my debate with him, the dictionary definition of "sun" says nothing whatsoever about nuclear fusion or mechanism of power generation; it refers only to luminous celestial bodies. His attempt to claim that the word "sun" is a full analytical description of power-generation mechanism is beneath contempt]

Mike's incessant lying on this topic is beneath contempt.  It started in the debate, and continues several times on this page, and elsewhere.

Reactor Power - UFP

In "The Dauphin" [TNG], the reactor power of the Enterprise-D is quantified as being less than one terawatt.

(Sigh) . . . still the Warsies continue with this fallacy, and refuse to accept that the Enterprise's comm system was incapable of terawatt levels.  Daled Four's atmosphere required a comm signal from a terawatt source.  Riker comments that it is more power than the entire ship can generate, and Data responds that it is what is required to penetrate the atmosphere.

Then they beamed someone down.

Praytell, how was this accomplished without the power required to accomplish it, as per Warsie ramblings?

Reactor Power - Empire

This entire box is an excellent example of circular reasoning. Anderson decides to assume the Imperator class Star Destroyers are limited to simple fusion based on a spectacularly vague quote from a novel.

It logically follows from the power generation of the Death Star, which (even if we ignore the novel) Ossus agrees cannot put out more energy than a small sun.  

Of course, a rational analyst would examine the evidence and determine that the results of the power generation can be quantified. . . . In either case, results are what matter in determining how advanced or effective something actually is.

Notice how Ossus simply assumes that Star Destroyers put out a lot more energy than their reactors would suggest, though he wisely chooses not to try to back that up.   Circular reasoning indeed.

Shields - UFP

When activated, shields stop some scanners, necessitating a brief lowering of the shields every few minutes. This sometimes allows others to transport through shields (ref. "The Wounded" [TNG])

(Sigh) . . . Ossus took his lessons in honesty from Garak.  The Phoenix was specifically identified as running with a high-energy sensor sweep. Given that they were sitting off the bow of a Cardassian vessel running with a high-energy subspace field that jammed sensors, this is hardly surprising.  Further, if this had been a standard sensor setup, then O'Brien would hardly have had cause to mention it.  Note also that the Phoenix is the only Nebula Class starship ever seen to carry the smooth, round "AWACS" pod as opposed to the triangular weapons pod seen on all other Nebula Class starships.  

And as for his claim that the shields were lowered:

, and could potentially lead to a danger of weapons firing through shields, however firing through shields has never been observed to take place due to this limitation.

Bullshit.  The Phoenix never dropped her shields . . . O'Brien transported through a 0.02 second frequency window, during shield alignment required by the high-energy sensor setup.  

In "Survivors" [TNG], a 400 gigawatt weapon eliminates the Enterprise's shields in a single shot. 

That, quite simply, never happened.  Besides the contradiction with a wide variety of other shield incidents, the event described was illusory . . . a spectre, fired from a false image of a starship, which was created by a being of disguises and false surroundings.  

Praytell, how can a ship that does not exist fire a weapon which does?

In "Relics" [TNG], it is revealed that "a few extra gigawatts" is substantial enough to represent considerable reinforcement of shipboard shields.

There is no indication that Scotty's "few extra gigawatts out of these babies" was substantial or considerable, or even just how many he was implying, engineer-to-engineer.  That's simply Ossus assigning a context which, judging by Scotty's attitude, is actually contrary to what is meant. 

To be fair, though, we do not know with certainty what the pre-existing shield level would've been, based on such a statement.  The situation and quote could be akin to the driver of a 285 horsepower sports car hoping to get "a few extra horses" (one or two orders of magnitude difference), or it could be equivalent to Doolittle in World War II trying to shave "a few extra pounds" off of his already-shorn 31,000 pound B-25 Mitchells (up to five orders of magnitude difference), or a computer owner saying he hopes to overclock his chip to get "a few more hertz" out of his 2 gigahertz processor (up to nine orders of magnitude difference).  It depends on what is meant in this instance by "a few", compared to the total.  Don't forget that, as per "Retrospect"[VOY] and "True Q"[TNG], millions of gigawatts is a common phrasing, as opposed to breaking out petawatts.

Additionally, if shields in Star Trek actually were designed to use gravitons, and through gravitons gravity, in order to protect the ship, then we would expect to see light bending around shielded starships and their defenses. We do not see this. Thus, Star Trek shields are almost certainly not based on gravity.

No kidding!   The problem here is Ossus's inference . . . "and through gravitons gravity".  The fact is that we do not know the full measure of how shields work . . . we do not know what the gravitons are doing.  However, with the explicit evidence of Geordi's screen in Generations, we know that they are graviton-based and modulated.  We also know that they have frequencies, phase alignment, and so on.  How all of this works is anyone's guess, but we've seen them work and work quite well, a la the transporters (with the "Heisenberg compensators"), the Superlaser Effect, et cetera. 

It is also interesting to note that Star Trek shields do not fully protect ships, while they are active. Numerous incidents demonstrate that attacking craft can do physical damage to UFP ships while their shields are still up. 

Such as Star Trek VI.  However, virtually every other incident before or since demonstrates that attacking vessels cannot do physical damage through shields.  

This phenomena is seen clearly in "Conundrum" [TNG], during which a 2.1 Megajoule weapon shakes the bridge, even though the ship has its shields up. Since 2.1 MJ is far too little energy to actually shake a ship the size of the Enterprise, we must assume that the weapon damaged the ship's internal systems.

That's my Ossus . . . always willing and able to hold up something unusual and utterly inconsistent as some sort of standard, especially if he gets to misrepresent it a little in the process.  This notion has been beaten to death a thousand times . . . little wonder, then, that he would run to it.  Here's yet another version of the beat-down, for time number 1001:

1.  The weapon was a disruptor, part of the weapons complement of a Lysian destroyer. 

2.  Disruptors have been seen to operate in a manner similar to phasers ("Face of the Enemy"[TNG], Star Trek VI, et cetera, et cetera), and this is confirmed by dialog (" . . . like phasers, only worse!" in "Arena"[TOS]).

3.  The "4.7 megajoule power capacity" of the Cardassian disruptor rifle is stated by Kira to be slightly more powerful than the phaser rifles of the Federation, which are known to be able to vaporize people.

4.  Just to vaporize a single kilogram of water at 37 degrees Celsius requires 2,764,600 joules (2.7 megajoules).  Assuming an average person weighed 80 kilograms as was composed entirely of water (as opposed to higher-density bone and other materials), this would require 216 megajoules.

Given #1-4, we may infer that the shot fired against the Enterprise did not actually have an effective impact on the ship of a mere 2.1 megajoules.  This is especially likely given that all starships and their personnel are not instantly killed by photon torpedo impact (torpedoes have demonstrated a firepower of no less than 100 megatons, or over 418 billion megajoules . . . and in some cases far more than that).

Other versions of the beating down of the bullshit Warsies fling based on "Conundrum" include the fact that the Enterprise was engaging in evasive maneuvers at the time, and would thus be expected to have the peculiar mass-lightening elements of the impulse drive system in operation.   Then there's the maneuver of simply pointing out the staggering contradiction with, for example, incidents of Romulan disruptor fire, which is capable of independently destroying significant portions of a planet's surface ("The Die is Cast"[DS9]) while simultaneously being incapable of penetrating the shields of the Enterprise-D ("Tin Man"[TNG]).

Any version works.  Pick one, or all.  However, don't give us that old crap about 2.1 megajoules penetrating the shields.

Shields - Empire

The necessity of destroying asteroids demonstrates that the shields on ISD's are very poor at stopping physical impacts?

Ossus knows good and well that's not what I said.

Given the bridge-tower destruction in TESB (the novel suggest the entire ship was destroyed), Anakin's flight into the cargo bay in TPM, the Millennium Falcon attaching itself to the bridge tower, and the apparent necessity of shooting the various little rocks floating about in the TESB asteroid field, one could make a defensible argument that the "particle shield" complement to ray shields does not exist, but for the weak magnetic deflectors observed and flown through when fighters approached the Death Star in ANH. On the other hand, fighters were said to have collided against DS2's shield, and Anakin's Naboo fighter seemed to score knock-downs of droids with its shield, so it's hazy. (emphasis new and mine)

Note that one Star Destroyer in the asteroid field withstood a 2 TJ impact without damage in ESB.  

From an asteroid that was shot like all the others in the scene? 

[Editor's note: and the Death Star withstood the explosion of Alderaan from a mere six planetary diameters out, according to the canon novelization; a blast of some 1E38 J of which a quantity of debris carrying some 3E31 J of kinetic energy was headed its way]

Funny . . . we see a handful of large chunks headed in the general direction of the Death Star . . . 

. . . but claiming that they were certainly headed its way and hit it, and that therefore we should adjust shield beliefs accordingly, is going to require a lot more than the word of the likes of Wong.

[Editor's note: RSA also completely ignores the reaction-force explanation for energy weapons and physical impacts requiring different countermeasures]

I assume that he makes this comment because I refer to Imperial shields as "peculiar".  They are.  I ignore Wong's reaction-force argument for particle shielding requirements in both universes because it does not follow what is seen in the Star Trek canon, and it also does not follow certain instances in the Star Wars canon, such as Anakin's fighter shield that performed both roles a la Star Trek shields.  

Armor - UFP

It's peculiar how Ossus's "rebuttal" has precisely nothing to do with anything I said.  But, carrying on:

Once again, Anderson ignores "Genesis" [TNG], in which the Enterprise did not enter an asteroid field due to the risks.

1.  Why should the entire starship be sent to retrieve a torpedo flying like a bat out of hell through an asteroid field?

2.  I do not ignore "Genesis" now or ever . . . it is irrelevant to the armor information given.  And, as anyone who read the hull strength page should've figured out, at no point do I suggest that the Enterprise-D could go flying like a bat out of hell through the field without damage.  But, then, as we've seen, it would've been just as dangerous for an ISD.

Additionally, in "The Nth Degree" [TNG], it is revealed that the Enterprise-D cannot withstand a single near miss from its own aft-torpedo launcher at close range.  That is, if the Enterprise fires on something within a few hundred meters of itself, it will destroy itself, even with its shields up.

Once again, Ossus screws up, and seeks to hold an apparent inconsistency as a standard.  Praytell, if the ship cannot withstand its own weapons, how can it withstand the torpedoes of its technological equals in the quadrant?   And how is it that we saw torpedoes fired at a range of just a few kilometers in Nemesis, with no concern of such effects?

No, the issue here is not the explosion of the torpedo.  First, the Enterprise's shields were being drained by the peculiar energy field of the unknown alien probe they wanted to fire upon, which had already demonstrated itself capable of crippling a huge subspace telescope and a shuttlecraft.   Second, Riker's comment is that the ship could be cripped by an explosion . . . there is no specific mention of the torpedo's explosion.   Gee, ya think Riker was concerned about the target blowing up?

In "Q Who" [TNG], the Enterprise is prevented from firing on a Borg cube due to the risk associated with a torpedo detonation at a range of kilometers!

Oh, no, not "kilometers" (gasp)!  Must be hundreds, or maybe thousands!

Oh.  Guess not.  That's maybe two kilometers, probably less. And, oh, look, she was unshielded, too.  So, either the torpedo was going to be blasting chunks of the cube at the ship, or else the torpedo detonation was going to heat the hull to well over 12,000 degrees (survived without incident in "Descent"[TNG]). 

Ossus then spews off with the assertion that the Nemesis collision had very little kinetic energy because he believes the two damaged ships had their mass-lightening system active, even though there's no indication of this in the incident.  The Enterprise-E had just had her impulse engines come back online, and the Scimitar, which had already demonstrated profound maneuvering capability (most notably when she dropped out of warp), wasn't even able to lumber out of the way.   Had the acceleration and collision events shown anything even remotely akin to the Enterprise-1701's 34,000 m/s² acceleration in Star Trek: The Motion Picture, or even other events in Nemesis, then we could safely infer active mass-lightening.  However, nothing of the sort appears here.   Further, Picard ordered full impulse, but the ship was far less capable of accelerating that she had been earlier in the film.  Finally, what sense would it make for Picard to leave that system on during a ramming? 

Armor - Empire

The ship in ESB that suffered an impact to the bridge was clearly not destroyed. This has been discussed to death in numerous debates.

The novel says that the ship which was struck in that scene was destroyed by explosion.  In that scene, we cut away mere moments after impact.  There is no reason to doubt the novel's contention that the ship explodes.

Moreover, a careful inspection of the film reveals that the bridge may not have been "sheared off" at all. The outline of the bridge is visible after the impact, although it is difficult to see due to all of the debris. 

A hysterical claim long-held by the most rabid of Warsies, who try to cover the silliness of it by saying that it's dusty.  First, take a look at the scene:

Note how, in the last frame, there is a line at the left side of the glow, in the direction of a slash \\.   This, Warsies claim, is the rear section of the neck of the Star Destroyer, behind the bridge.  Note, however, that you can see the Executor's lights through the dust.   Note also that the line just so happens to follow the line of the normal glow of the Executor's engine glow, as seen here above and to the right of the ISD's globe:

Further, if you overlay two of the frames from that scene . . . one with bridge tower, and one without . . . based on the Star Destroyer's surface features, you'll see that the tower is gone, and the line at which the glow ends is way off from where it should be, in their view:

(Note:  I kept some of the glow that surrounded the ISD's neck area in the scene of the asteroid impacting on the hull, so as to allow the hull line to be readily apparent.)

That line in the engine glow is not the ISD's neck, and where we should see ISD bridge tower, we only see dust and debris. 

Anderson points out an example of stone being useful in protecting a temple, due to its density. He, of course, neglects to mention a very similar event that happened in "Cost of Living" [TNG], in which Riker suggested using a torpedo against an asteroid but Data explained that "the core is composed of densely compressed nitrium and chrondite. It is unlikely that another photon torpedo will have any effect on it." Given that a torpedo detonating five kilometers away from the Enterprise in "Q Who" [TNG] was likely to destroy the ship, it is quite clear that UFP armor is extraordinarily weak.

Or that a large asteroid core (where "large" equals something roughly the size of the Enterprise-D's secondary hull) of densely-compressed nitrium and chrondite is helluva-big and helluva-tough, especially considering that they had mere seconds to destroy it before it impacted on the surface.  

Also, note how Ossus thinks this is five kilometers:

 At least in the Imperial case, direct hits are required to destroy other starships.

Near misses are all that is required, judging by this:

Beam Weapons - UFP

Note how Anderson assumes 100 MT torpedoes

Note how, in order to try to score some sort of points, Ossus plays dumb and conveniently forgets the very page he contributed stupid counter-arguments to.  Further, and most damningly, he ignores the fact that the source of the estimate and a link to the Rise calcs appears in the very next section, under "Missile Weapons"!

, and then goes on to make a completely subjective guess as to how powerful phasers actually are

Why does Ossus not even bother with honesty?   As a footnote to the standard gold-text recap (in which I say that phasers are in the terawatt range, minimum), I point out (in parentheses, no less) that it would not be hard to argue for 1-10 megaton phasers, based on their effectiveness compared to torpedoes.  This, suddenly, is my final declaration on the matter, and completely subjective, too!

Further, 200 years before TNG and DS9, phaser's maximum output was merely 5 terawatts.

First, that isn't a phaser, nitwit.  Second, I said "terawatt range, minimum" . . . well, this certainly doesn't contradict that, now does it?   And where did he come up with this information on the NX-01's weapons, you ask? . . . My page!

Beam Weapons - Empire

Suffice it to say that he misinterprets and misrepresents a considerable amount of data.

Scathing!

Missile Weapons - UFP

His low-end, "canon-ball" figure is high for Star Trek V.

I assume Ossus was trying to be cutesy-clever here, using a play on words.  Alternately, he was just being an idiot who doesn't know that a cannonball (and on my page, I did indeed say cannonball) is a cannonball, not a canon-ball.   

Dropping a rock from orbit would have done more damage than was observed.

I didn't say the cannonball was dropped from orbit, now did I?   How many cannonballs ever fired were dropped from orbit?

In "Conundrum," [TNG] Riker is confident that one photon torpedo "ought to do it" to an outpost with a shield output of 4.3 kilojoules. Note that this is a laughably tiny observed firepower, and Riker was unable to guarantee a destruction of the outpost with a single torpedo!

Ah, so naturally we should consider this to imply that the torpedo might not get through the 4.3kJ shields, as opposed to being rational and looking at the fact that the "outpost" (actually the Lysian command station) was freakin' huge, as seen in the following (when the Enterprise was still quite distant, several several seconds from "optimal torpedo range"):

Yes, boys and girls, Ossus just seriously tried to use the fact that the bohemoth above could be wiped out with a single torpedo as proof that torpedoes suck.

Stupid Ossus.

Missile Weapons - Empire

There are a number of things to be noted about this box. The first is that he makes very vague references to proton torpedoes throwing shrapnel, but does not provide a source.

Read the site, nitwit, or just try a little logic.  I note the shrapnel bit while mentioning non-canon claims . . . therefore, it's probably in (gasp!) my non-canon section!   

Had Ossus bothered to look, he'd have noticed that the Obsidian Order Project index happens to have page entitled Missiles and Torpedoes, which just so happens to include the following from quote 6.1:  "Shrapnel from the missile itself blew through the transparisteel viewport."   [ "X-Wing: Isard's Revenge" p.59 ]

Note that a pair of torpedoes detonating on the surface of the original Death Star is enough to shake the entire vessel considerably.

And yet, mysteriously, this torpedo, whose impact and detonation supposedly shook a 120km battlestation, didn't release enough energy to harm the fighter flying through the blast.  You don't think it affected the reactor vent, and hence the reactor, do you?  Or maybe that it only shook the area around the vent, perhaps?  Nahhh, of course not!  Such ideas would be logical, and we mustn't have that.   Besides, Ossus said it, so it must be true.

Further, missiles are also used in Return of the Jedi (RotJ), when Wedge fires his two torpedoes that destroy the "power regulator on the North Tower,"

In Star Wars, there is a difference between missiles and torpedoes (or, more properly, "concussion missiles" and "proton torpedoes").  Ossus is obviously ignorant of this.

Of course, Anderson pretends to have compiled a complete, canon listing of missile weapons with the following statement: "Capital ship missile weapons have not been observed, though fighters have been seen to use them in ANH and TPM."

Actually, Ossus almost gets me here, since I inadvertently put "missile weapons" instead of "torpedo weapons".  Of course, he then goes and screws up his first gaining of a point:  

In fact, of all the Star Wars movies, only ESB does not have a missile weapon being fired from a starfighter.

Slave I is a fighter?  He called it a ship in TESB . . . "take him to my ship".

And ESB had bombs being dropped by Imperial bombers!

Bombs are indeed missiles by denotation of the term (as per this definition, a missile can be something dropped), though the bombs would hardly be of much use in ship-to-ship combat.    In that same vein, I also neglect to mention Federation self-replicating mines and magnetic mines in the Star Trek section, both of which were dropped from Starfleet vessels (the Defiant and a shuttle, respectively).   Darn me.  Darn me to heck. 

Weapons Ranges - UFP

"With a limited torpedo loadout, and the fact that torpedoes are dangerous to use at extreme short range, it makes some sense to close to point-blank."

It does?

Yep, if you think about it.  Oh, sorry . . . I forgot . . . it's Ossus.

Let's say you're some goober who wants to go up against the Federation flagship.   Would you rather sit there and be pelted by torpedoes homing in on you, or would you rather close in to point-blank and make it a phaser contest?  The sort of weapons loadout you have and your own maneuverability is quite irrelevant here . . . the simple fact is that you will last longer if you can get in to spitting distance.

Also note how Mr. Anderson believes in excellent maneuverability for ST ships, though this has not been observed in most cases.

Examples of excellent maneuverability have been given.   Are these to be ignored simply because such maneuvers are not used every single time?   What a peculiar logic!

 He further ignores the potential of electronic counter measures and heavy jamming to be the actual reason why starships engage at such tiny ranges in Star Trek so frequently

Gee, probably because those are never suggested as the cause.   Hell, even in "The Wounded"[TNG], not only did we see the Phoenix and the Cardassians firing from hella-range, but we also saw the Phoenix go chasing down and then park right in front of a Cardassian vessel operating with a sensor-jamming high-energy subspace field.  In short, the ability to locate the vessel and "target" it for navigation purposes was not affected by the sensor-jamming.

, and he falls for the warp-strafe fallacy, which will be explained away in a later page.

"Explained away" . . . now that is at least a show of semi-honesty.   Ossus makes it plain that he must explain away capabilities and pretend they do not exist.   And, as seen with the absolutely crappy warp strafing "rebuttal" he tried to use, he can't even do that.

In "A Matter of Honor," starship ranges are explained by the dialogue to be in thousands of kilometers, but a visual analysis of the episode clearly shows the range to be in kilometers at the most.

A plain old lie.  The Klingon ship was closing on the Enterprise.  Riker told the Klingon captain to wait to fire until he was within 40,000 kilometers.   Did he then decloak and fire?  No, he was beamed off the ship, and Worf stunned him.   Riker assumed the captaincy and, after some tense moments with his new crew, finally convinced them to decloak in front of the Enterprise, at a range of "kilometers at the most".  

(This is yet another example of Ossus's peculiar inability to deal with events occurring at different times, and that change might happen in between time point A and time point B.   

Or, maybe he's just a lying little prick.)

Why, in "The Die is Cast" [DS9] did Sisko order his ship to move to just 500 meters before opening fire?

Because he was ramming it down the Jem'Hadar ships' collective throat (and he did it well, too).  Note that the Defiant was, in the midst of her run, being fired on successfully at 50 kilometers . . . and we're supposed to believe that there was some limitation requiring a mere 500 meter range?   Note also that Kira expressed concern before the maneuver that "we might get pretty singed at that range".  Sisko's reply?  "Not as singed as they're going to get.  Engage!"    And we're supposed to believe that the Defiant can't fire beyond 500 meters?   The hell?

In the Voyager episode, "Equinox," Voyager was unable to fire on a ship as it moved into the atmosphere while maintaining orbit. This indicates that Voyager cannot fire its weapons accurately against a maneuvering target at a range of a few thousand kilometers.

Actually, in the Voyager episode, "Equinox", Voyager was very much able to fire on the ship as it moved into the atmosphere, but did not fire on the vessel after breaking pursuit.  (This probably had something to do with the fact that her propulsion systems were offline, and all power was being routed to the shields . . . not only to prevent any damage from combat with the Equinox, but also to prevent the deaths of crewmembers due to attacks by the little green thingies that could open fissures in the hull.)  This indicates that Ossus is a lying twit.

The visually observed (and, therefore, verifiable) ranges in Star Trek are always in the area of a few tens of kilometers, at the most, when engaging maneuvering targets.

Funny . . . that very same episode (mere seconds beforehand, in fact!) has Voyager firing on the Equinox at just under 30,000 kilometers as the ship maneuvered.   And, of course, we have plenty of other examples, such as "Elaan of Troyius"[TOS] in which a Klingon battlecruiser, both at warp and impulse, was quite capable of pelting the Enterprise while she engaged in evasive maneuvers at impulse speeds. 

And let's not forget "Dragon's Teeth"[VOY], which shows Tuvok successfully destroying small, highly maneuverable Vaadwuar fighter craft using only manual targeting, while at low-kilometer range.

Moreover, the occasional use of "manual targeting," once a targeting computer has been destroyed, indicates that the range is sufficiently small so as to allow a human to target enemy vessels with reasonable accuracy. This is hardly a selling point of ST ships.

Ossus seems to be under the impression that manual targeting, despite being performed from the bridge, must involve some guy twirling a gun around as if with bare hands or some goofy flight-stick system, or maybe a World War II battleship deck gun sort of method.   Wonder where he would get that idea?

Weapons Ranges - Empire

Note how Anderson, here, admits that the accuracy of the Trade Federation battleship did not improve, even as the Queen's starship in TPM skimmed the hull.

Um, no.  I don't "admit" it.  I point it out.  I was the first to do so.  

This is clearly indicative of a lack of accuracy independent of range.

(Snickers) . . . nice way to argue for the Star Wars side there, Ossus.

In RotJ, we heard that the Imperial fleet was in attack position when it was at a considerable distance from the Rebel fleet, as shown when Lando surveyed the Imperial ships and many of them were visibly a very large distance away.

They were less distant than the Trade Federation battleships were from Amidala's SR-71.  And when the officers discussed whether they were to attack, they were in fact ordered to simply hold here.  That implies they would've attacked by moving in . . . which would make sense, given Imperial accuracy.

Further, since he clearly used the EU to decide that ranges were sufficient to launch an orbital bombardment,

The hell?   Um, hello, The Empire Strikes Back is not EU.  Or was this "any bombardment" that could be deflected by the Hoth shield to have been performed by the Executor flying around in the atmosphere like a giant brick?  Stupid Ossus.

 it is fair to use the EU to point out that in Rebel Dream a New Republic capital ship successfully engages another starship from outside the system- a range unheard of, even in Star Trek.

Well, as long as Ossus has whipped out Rebel Dream, let's point out that that very book shows us some absolutely awe-inspiring Darksaber-level firepower from the Lusankya, most powerful ship in the navy:

Page 301: "And it began to rain. 

It didn't rain water. It rained columns of destructive energy, massed fire from turbolaser batteries far overhead, brilliant needles of light that poured into the jungle all around the kill zone. 

The turbolaser blasts tore through vegetation, through everything beneath it. Blasts hitting trees detonated them in clouds of smoke. Beams hitting ponds and creeks and stagnant water sent up clouds of superheated steam.

 [...] This was orbital bombardment, what the Empire's Star Destroyers had been built to do, what no Star Destroyer under the command of the New Republic had ever done. [...] Lusankya was finally fufilling the purpose for which she had been built, before Jaina had ever been born. "

Holy crap!!  They blew up some trees and might've vaped a whole pond!!  Whoo-wee!!

FTL Drive - UFP

Note how, in this box, Anderson ignores the fact that TOS ships appeared to be the fastest!

Note how, in this instance of stupidity, Ossus ignores the fact that the TOS warp scale's 11 (if not faster) attained by the Kelvan-enhanced Enterprise-Prime is not even equivalent to the maximum speed of the Enterprise-D! 

He clearly states that starships in Star Trek V can make 20,000,000c, whereas starships in TNG can sustain merely 2,700c. 

Funny, I'm pretty damned sure I pointed out that warp speeds are shown to be inconsistent, and I'm also pretty sure that I put Star Trek V at the top of that list.   Further, I never suggested that starships in TNG can sustain only 2,700c . . . I don't even see that number in my text.   My final tally reads as follows:

"Final Tally: ~ 21,000c (fast ship), ~ 9,000c (slower ship max), ~1,000c (common velocity)"

Anderson then uses this to conclude that newer ships are faster!

Wow . . . did he even read what I wrote?  Does he even understand TNG-era warp factors, and the fact that bigger number = faster speed?   I point out that Intrepid Class starships (max sustainable cruise velocity warp 9.975) are faster than older types such as the Galaxy Class starships ("red line" at warp 9.2, though capable of higher speed), and he simply ignores this in an absolutely horrible effort at pretending that I've screwed something up.  It would be laughable if it weren't so utterly sad.

 This is supported by the fact that the UFP had apparently changed the method in which warp drives operated during TNG, DS9, and VOY. During those series, we heard about a UFP "speed limit" designed to preserve the environment

Oh my god.   First, he's trying to defend the idea that TOS Starfleet ships are faster.  Second, he's demonstrating his utter ignorance of that whole "time" concept again.   Does he not realize that the warp five speed limit was imposed during TNG's seventh season, in "Force of Nature"[TNG]?  Why the hell would they slow their ships down by a thousand times sometime before TNG if they didn't know about the problem until over six years after TNG began?  

, until the USS Voyager left with an early, ecologically friendly warp drive.

That presumption, though vaguely supported by the simple fact that Voyager never bothered with the speed limit, is in fact mere backstage speculation.

This clearly contradicts what we see on his website. This is becoming a pattern on the site, with explanations of reasoning concluding with figures that are wholly dissimilar from the conclusions allegedly drawn from that reasoning.

One might very well be tempted to think so, if logic and reason were not one's guide.

[Editor's note: he uses ST5 for this 2E7c figure, but he neglects to mention that they could not possibly have been at the centre of our galaxy. The centre of our galaxy is a nightmare of black holes, free antimatter, etc., and bears no resemblance whatsoever to the modest planet-sized cloud we saw in ST5. Perhaps Sybok was being figurative when he said it was at the centre of the galaxy, but whatever the explanation, we can see quite clearly that this modest little planet bore no resemblance whatsoever to the actual centre of the galaxy]

Mike seems to be under the impression that stating the obvious . . . that there's a black hole at the actual dead center of the galaxy . . . should somehow eliminate Star Trek V from the canon.  While the elimination of Star Trek V may or may not be a good thing, it obviously didn't occur to him that the planet didn't have to be at dead freakin' center.  Hell, for people used to flying around the arms of the galaxy, almost anywhere in the central bar might count as the center.  Picard identified the location they were taken to by the Cytherians in "The Nth Degree" as the "center of the galaxy", after all.  

(I'm also curious to know where he gets this notion that the blue swirling whatever-it-was barrier was merely planet-sized, but that's neither here nor there.)

FTL Drive - Empire

Anderson is incorrect in his statements that it is difficult to generate canon estimates for hyperdrive speeds from Star Wars. He concludes that "there is nothing in canon to support [speeds such as those reported in the EU]." Of course there isn't.  There isn't any data to support such speeds, using purely canon data. 

1.  Thanks for noticing.

2.  How the hell does that make me incorrect for saying that it's difficult to generate canon estimates?

Note how Anderson dismisses the EU out of hand for having different speeds for different ships in different areas.

No, I dismiss the EU out of hand because it's irrelevant.

The canonical RotJ Novelization shows that the distance between Endor and Sullust (where the Rebel Fleet gathers) is hundreds of light years. "It [the Rebel fleet] was hundreds of light-years from the Death Star -- but in hyperspace, all time was a moment, and the deadliness of an attack was measured not in distance but in precision." (page 145) Now, we know that the Rebel fleet does not even jump into hyperspace until after Threepio informs Han that there is a secret entrance to the shield bunker "on the other side of the ridge." We're not real sure how long it takes the Rebel Fleet to arrive at Endor, but the difference could not reasonably be more than one day.

Uh, why?  There are only two ridges in view . . . the one they're on (as it is referred to in the novel), and one that appears to be several kilometers distant from where they are.  

In any case, they had to: 

1.  Stealthily move from their location to the secret entrance an unknown distance away 

2.  Stealthily get into position to capture the last remaining trooper outside the door 

3.  Do whatever they were doing when Luke was brought before the Emperor for the first time

4.  Finally get captured by Imperials

Meanwhile, the Ewoks had to have:

1.  Gotten their army and equipment stealthily into position in the area of the back door, once it was known that the back door was where they were needed

2.  Transported or constructed large catapults, and collected the rocks to be fired from them

3.  Cut down at least one tree in order to suspend two huge trunks in mid-air, held at a high point of the swing by a single vine, with all of this being done stealthily

4.  Felled a sufficient number of smaller trees to create the log trap which toppled an AT-ST

5.  (As per the novel) Dug pits of sufficient size and depth that an AT-ST would topple into it

5a.   . . . and designed and built the required underbrush covering to hide it

6.  (As per the novel) Dammed a nearby stream so that, on cue, the water would be released.  The volume of water was sufficient to take out two additional AT-STs, so it was (A) hardly a tiny stream, which means damming it would take a lot of time or (B) a tiny stream that had time to collect into a helluva lot of water

Now, it would require a shitload of Ewoks to be able to do all of those things in less than a few days, especially given their limited technology . . . and that's just once they got there.  We simply did not see sufficient numbers of Ewoks to allow for that sort of workload in a single day.

The lower limit speed is thus 200 light years over twenty four hours, or nearly 75,000c. A much more reasonable speed is 400 light years over two hours, which comes out to 1,752,000c!

Stupid Ossus.  There is no way the events could have occurred over a mere two hours.  A more reasonable estimate would be obtained by guessing a lower-limit 200 light-years with a travel time of about two to four days at least, giving us speeds of 36,500c and 18,250c, respectively.   At absolute maximum, we would have 999 light-years in two days, or over 182,000c.  Not even close to some of the TOS figures (and certainly not Star Trek V), but not bad.

Of course, there's a small hitch to Ossus's reasoning.   The novel demands that the Rebel armada's starting point was Sullust orbit, on the grounds that such a coordinated attack needed a simple starting point to work from for the navigational computers.  However, in none of the RoTJ Rebel fleet scenes is any such planet observed.   Thus, all we know is that the fleet is somewhere "near Sullust", as per Vader, with Sullust being a populated world (that's where Lando's odd little co-pilot was from).   Depending on where the next populated world was along that general trajectory as landmark, there could be an awful lot of difference in distance. 

(The difference in location, by the way, is why I never made fun of Star Wars computing power on the grounds that they couldn't figure out how to do the math to get from point A to point B.)

This does not even take into account the canonical reference to different hyperdrives having different capabilities, but the rag-tag Rebel Fleet undoubtedly carried some ships that were relatively slow in hyperspace—it had transports, capital ships, and starfighters all moving as one! 

Given Amidala and Anakin's racing across "less than a parsec" to Geonosis to save Obi-Wan (which appeared to take at least several hours of Coruscant time, but no less than about three), then one of the ships would've been limited to about 9,000c.  If it was more like six hours (which appears to be the case), then one of the ships would've been limited to 4,400c (let's not even mention if the trip took 12 hours as it very well could've).  That would equate to a Sullust-Endor travel time of 16 days, which would be quite sufficient to allow a group of undisciplined primitives to figure out how to do all the things they did, and have time in which to do it.  

Of course, Ossus didn't bother to comment on that example of screamin' speed, which is less than the Galaxy Class maximum by about half.

Since this [i.e. the 1.7 million c figure, naturally] is over 80 times Anderson's estimate for a "fast ship" in ST, it is fair to say that hyperdrive, even with just canon examples, is far faster than warp in the TNG era.

Ignoring Ossus's irrational value, we have warp 9.9 as 21,400c, well below the "sustainable cruise velocity" of 9.975 of an Intrepid Class starship.  But, let's use the Galaxy Class maximum warp, which we'll say is her warp 9.2 red line of 9000c.

On the absolute highest side from RoTJ, we have 182,000c.  That's 16 times faster than a Galaxy Class starship, and 8 times faster than a ship capable of warp 9.9, like